An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
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13-04-2017, 11:15 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(13-04-2017 10:54 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 09:40 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I think that goes too far. I think there are more accurate ways to say it.
At times, if brains are healthy and functioning well, they (can) produce what we experience as "consciousness". Consciousness is not *a* "thing". It's a total of millions of reactions which are integrated. We "experience" it as a unity, but in fact its very complex and multifactorial. Your "experience" of something takes a few micro-seconds to integrate and reference your memories of past inputs to make sense of the present inputs. You experience the "assemblage", but it's really your brain tricking you into not seeing the parts. Your eyes actually see different things, (two images). Your brain has learned (haha) how to assemble the inputs. Sometimes it fails, (for example many people with stroke have double vision).

But I think that's exactly what Searle is saying. He's arguing that the consciousness you experience is not necessarily a product of the brain, but describes a physical state of the brain. This accounts for the unity of experience because any given brain state can be defined by all of the states of all of its physical components. I think Searle correctly compares this to the liquidity of water. It's not something that is produced by water, but is a state water can be in based on temperature.

If that's what he's saying, then I am NOT saying that. Consciousness is not a 'state of the brain', it's a PRODUCT of reactions IN the brain. There never is a "brain state". Everything is moving at an incredibly fast pace. The word "state" is not appropriate. If there could be a (fraction of a nanosecond) "brain state" it would have changed so fast, there would be no experience of that state.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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13-04-2017, 11:31 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(13-04-2017 11:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 10:54 AM)Naielis Wrote:  But I think that's exactly what Searle is saying. He's arguing that the consciousness you experience is not necessarily a product of the brain, but describes a physical state of the brain. This accounts for the unity of experience because any given brain state can be defined by all of the states of all of its physical components. I think Searle correctly compares this to the liquidity of water. It's not something that is produced by water, but is a state water can be in based on temperature.

If that's what he's saying, then I am NOT saying that. Consciousness is not a 'state of the brain', it's a PRODUCT of reactions IN the brain. There never is a "brain state". Everything is moving at an incredibly fast pace. The word "state" is not appropriate. If there could be a (fraction of a nanosecond) "brain state" it would have changed so fast, there would be no experience of that state.

Well it could encompass multiple different brain states. To go back to the water analogy, the water could still be liquid at various different temperatures. But there are ranges of temperatures at which it loses this quality. Similarly, there are multiple different physical arrangements a brain can be in where it is conscious. But if you say consciousness is a product of the brain, then it seems you have the same problem as the property dualist: you're giving consciousness substance that it doesn't have. The liquidity of water is not something separate from the water that is created by the water. It is a property of the water that can be understood as a specific state. And a specific state encompasses a range of the variables that define the system. In the case of the water that is temperature. In the case of consciousness that is the physical arrangement of the brain.
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13-04-2017, 11:45 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(13-04-2017 11:31 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 11:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If that's what he's saying, then I am NOT saying that. Consciousness is not a 'state of the brain', it's a PRODUCT of reactions IN the brain. There never is a "brain state". Everything is moving at an incredibly fast pace. The word "state" is not appropriate. If there could be a (fraction of a nanosecond) "brain state" it would have changed so fast, there would be no experience of that state.

Well it could encompass multiple different brain states. To go back to the water analogy, the water could still be liquid at various different temperatures. But there are ranges of temperatures at which it loses this quality. Similarly, there are multiple different physical arrangements a brain can be in where it is conscious. But if you say consciousness is a product of the brain, then it seems you have the same problem as the property dualist: you're giving consciousness substance that it doesn't have. The liquidity of water is not something separate from the water that is created by the water. It is a property of the water that can be understood as a specific state. And a specific state encompasses a range of the variables that define the system. In the case of the water that is temperature. In the case of consciousness that is the physical arrangement of the brain.

There are an infinite number of physical arrangements the brain could be in. In the brain, billions of reactions are taking place. You experience the integration/sum of those reactions as consciousness. The words "states" and "products" are inaccurate and misleading descriptors.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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13-04-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(13-04-2017 11:45 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There are an infinite number of physical arrangements the brain could be in. In the brain, billions of reactions are taking place. You experience the integration/sum of those reactions as consciousness. The words "states" and "products" are inaccurate and misleading descriptors.

Perhaps they are inadequate terms, but I think they convey the point very well. "Integration" or "sum" also seem to work well.
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14-04-2017, 10:50 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(12-05-2011 06:13 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  I wonder what the best excuse for Michal is, maybe at the time she was 18 and had a son every year since adulthood. Not that it matters since David was dead long before this fictitious event happened.

I had to look this one up because it's quite blatant.

Apparently, it is caused by a textual problem. Some modern Bibles have corrected this problem by replacing the name Michal with Merab in 2 Sam 21:8.

The reason they think it is a copyist error and should be Merab not Michal, is because 1 Sam 18:19 says Merab was given to Adriel as a wife (and she ((Merab)) had 5 children with him). It makes sense this way, but at the very least it's an error in the bible.

Checking the Hebrew Interlinear text though, it has Michal in it.

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14-04-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(14-04-2017 10:50 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(12-05-2011 06:13 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  I wonder what the best excuse for Michal is, maybe at the time she was 18 and had a son every year since adulthood. Not that it matters since David was dead long before this fictitious event happened.

I had to look this one up because it's quite blatant.

Apparently, it is caused by a textual problem. Some modern Bibles have corrected this problem by replacing the name Michal with Merab in 2 Sam 21:8.

The reason they think it is a copyist error and should be Merab not Michal, is because 1 Sam 18:19 says Merab was given to Adriel as a wife (and she ((Merab)) had 5 children with him). It makes sense this way, but at the very least it's an error in the bible.

Checking the Hebrew Interlinear text though, it has Michal in it.

Some infallible deity this, can't even get a decent proof-reader.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-01-2018, 04:45 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Yep. This is gonna be a long one.

Feel free to throw your own logical dissections at any time.


GENESIS


First off, I'm skipping the whole "how were plants created before light/photosynthesis, how was light created before the sun, contradictions of which was created first" word games. Those take up too much time and words and pie.


1:16 "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."



-The moon is not a light, it is a reflection of the sun's light. This is the first of many examples that suggest that God's omnipotence seems to be limited to the knowledge of the demographics and time period of when the Bible was written. Strange.


1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

-Our? Just how many gods are there?


2:2 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

-even though they say that God only "rested" to set an example of how would should rest on the 7th day, couldn't the Bible just say "rest on Sunday" ??(question mark)? It clearly says God rested, which means that this all-powerful being was worn out from all those valleys and hills and Wyoming and platypuses.


The Garden and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil


-Sooooo... God takes these 2 newly formed, ignorant to life humans, puts them in a garden with a tree bearing food, nonchalantly goes "don't eat from it" ... then leaves... to go make Venus, I guess. And you know the rest.

So... WHY did he put them near the tree? WHY did he have that which he didn't want humans to attain be edible and tempting? WHY did he leave? WHY did he allow Satan the Snake to be in the garden, knowing full well that he would tempt them? Why did God design these 2 humans to be susceptible to temptation?

Then God comes strolling by (3:8 "walking in the garden in the cool of the day") at the PRECISE moment after they eat the fruit and goes "whoa whoa, what's going on here?" (I'm paraphrasing, of course)

It's like having a 2 year old child and going "Now son, I'm going to leave these delicious chocolate chip cookies sitting right here within reach of you. I'm going to the store to buy some Funyuns. Don't eat them. Bye!" When any caring parent would remove temptation, knowing that the child doesn't know any better.

So it's quite obvious to me that God WANTED man to F up royally. God created man with the sole purpose of imposing "original sin" upon him, so that he may feel guilty and grovel and ask forgiveness for something that wasn't his fault for all eternity.

That child who ate the cookies is now 40 and the parent is still bringing it up daily. "I don't care if you saved an orphanage from burning down today... remember when I told you not to eat those cookies and you did?"


Cain slays Abel and is "cast out" arbitrarily from one remote location of this empty world to another random remote location. Then he worries that "every one that findeth me shall slay me."

-This is a strange worry since he is 1 of 3 people in existence. Then he sleeps with his wife to start the incestual chain of humanity... but where did his wife come from?


6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days"

-I'm assuming these are literal giants and not "intellectual giants" or some modern term.


Then the Lord decides that all humanity is corrupt and needs to be massacred via flood.

-One... why the need for an elaborate flood? Why not just use your God powers and make every one not exist? You can only create from nothing, not turn into nothing? Two, were we not already told that men were made in His image? So either God is evil and corrupt, which is why we turned out like we did before and after the flood... or he is incapable of creating things how he wants. God is a flawed designer.

Maybe that's why he doesn't show his face anymore. He tried once, messed up and started over. Then he was like "whoa hold on, hold on. No, stop making more people. Wait, why did you kill that guy? Stop fucking! There's too many of you already! You know what!? Fuck this, I'm out!"


Then there's the Ark which I won't discuss do to redundancy. There are thousands of videos mocking this obvious nonsensical fairy tale already. The average thinker explaining the flaws of Noah and his ark is analogous to a world renowned chemist giving a lecture on the validity of alchemy.


Then Noah (the only righteous man in the world) gets hammered on wine and passes out naked.


Then the humans build an impressive tower and God (completely caught off guard) confuses them by making them speak multiple languages because their tower was more impressive than the one he made in shop class.


Many pages of slaves and servitude and historical inaccuracies and more incest


18:9 "And God said unto him, 'Where is Sarah thy wife?'" You're omnipotent, God. Quit messing with me. And stop asking about my wife, perv.


Lot offers his virgin daughters to a mob of rapists to appease their lust for the sexually attractive angels


God burns Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground, including all those "evil" children and newborn babies.


God turns Lot's wife in a pillar of salt just for kicks and giggles. Why exactly was it so wrong to look back at a village being assaulted by fire raining from the sky? If no one was supposed to look, perhaps God could've made the destruction a little more subtle.


Lot's daughters got their father drunk, then raped him." Yeah, I've been really drunk before, even drunk, high, and on acid at the same time. And not once during that time would I have "mistakenly" slept with my family members. Especially since they lived in a cave, separate from anyone that could have been confused for a bar skank.


21:1 "And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. For Sarah conceived..."

-God made a booty call


For some reason, God takes human form and wrestles Jacob. He is losing so he cheats and gropes Jacob's inner thigh.


Various pages discerning which parts of the penis to chop off.


Onan is murdered by God for spooging on the ground instead of impregnating his brother's wife.


A 7000 page story about Joseph being thought dead, but actually not.


INTERMISSION


For those of you that read this far... Bravo, you bored and dedicated souls. Obviously all the books aren't as interesting or important as Genesis, and will be skipped over (I'm looking at you Psalms).

Now I continue on with Exodus. Ahem...

Why go to Exodus dumb ass? Yew don't even know what the fourth word in the KJB means.
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19-01-2018, 06:22 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(19-01-2018 04:45 AM)John Curren Chapman Wrote:  Why go to Exodus dumb ass? Yew don't even know what the fourth word in the KJB means.

Please define it for us and show that it has an existent referent.

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19-01-2018, 07:55 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(19-01-2018 04:45 AM)John Curren Chapman Wrote:  
(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Yep. This is gonna be a long one.

Feel free to throw your own logical dissections at any time.


GENESIS


First off, I'm skipping the whole "how were plants created before light/photosynthesis, how was light created before the sun, contradictions of which was created first" word games. Those take up too much time and words and pie.


1:16 "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."



-The moon is not a light, it is a reflection of the sun's light. This is the first of many examples that suggest that God's omnipotence seems to be limited to the knowledge of the demographics and time period of when the Bible was written. Strange.


1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

-Our? Just how many gods are there?


2:2 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

-even though they say that God only "rested" to set an example of how would should rest on the 7th day, couldn't the Bible just say "rest on Sunday" ??(question mark)? It clearly says God rested, which means that this all-powerful being was worn out from all those valleys and hills and Wyoming and platypuses.


The Garden and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil


-Sooooo... God takes these 2 newly formed, ignorant to life humans, puts them in a garden with a tree bearing food, nonchalantly goes "don't eat from it" ... then leaves... to go make Venus, I guess. And you know the rest.

So... WHY did he put them near the tree? WHY did he have that which he didn't want humans to attain be edible and tempting? WHY did he leave? WHY did he allow Satan the Snake to be in the garden, knowing full well that he would tempt them? Why did God design these 2 humans to be susceptible to temptation?

Then God comes strolling by (3:8 "walking in the garden in the cool of the day") at the PRECISE moment after they eat the fruit and goes "whoa whoa, what's going on here?" (I'm paraphrasing, of course)

It's like having a 2 year old child and going "Now son, I'm going to leave these delicious chocolate chip cookies sitting right here within reach of you. I'm going to the store to buy some Funyuns. Don't eat them. Bye!" When any caring parent would remove temptation, knowing that the child doesn't know any better.

So it's quite obvious to me that God WANTED man to F up royally. God created man with the sole purpose of imposing "original sin" upon him, so that he may feel guilty and grovel and ask forgiveness for something that wasn't his fault for all eternity.

That child who ate the cookies is now 40 and the parent is still bringing it up daily. "I don't care if you saved an orphanage from burning down today... remember when I told you not to eat those cookies and you did?"


Cain slays Abel and is "cast out" arbitrarily from one remote location of this empty world to another random remote location. Then he worries that "every one that findeth me shall slay me."

-This is a strange worry since he is 1 of 3 people in existence. Then he sleeps with his wife to start the incestual chain of humanity... but where did his wife come from?


6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days"

-I'm assuming these are literal giants and not "intellectual giants" or some modern term.


Then the Lord decides that all humanity is corrupt and needs to be massacred via flood.

-One... why the need for an elaborate flood? Why not just use your God powers and make every one not exist? You can only create from nothing, not turn into nothing? Two, were we not already told that men were made in His image? So either God is evil and corrupt, which is why we turned out like we did before and after the flood... or he is incapable of creating things how he wants. God is a flawed designer.

Maybe that's why he doesn't show his face anymore. He tried once, messed up and started over. Then he was like "whoa hold on, hold on. No, stop making more people. Wait, why did you kill that guy? Stop fucking! There's too many of you already! You know what!? Fuck this, I'm out!"


Then there's the Ark which I won't discuss do to redundancy. There are thousands of videos mocking this obvious nonsensical fairy tale already. The average thinker explaining the flaws of Noah and his ark is analogous to a world renowned chemist giving a lecture on the validity of alchemy.


Then Noah (the only righteous man in the world) gets hammered on wine and passes out naked.


Then the humans build an impressive tower and God (completely caught off guard) confuses them by making them speak multiple languages because their tower was more impressive than the one he made in shop class.


Many pages of slaves and servitude and historical inaccuracies and more incest


18:9 "And God said unto him, 'Where is Sarah thy wife?'" You're omnipotent, God. Quit messing with me. And stop asking about my wife, perv.


Lot offers his virgin daughters to a mob of rapists to appease their lust for the sexually attractive angels


God burns Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground, including all those "evil" children and newborn babies.


God turns Lot's wife in a pillar of salt just for kicks and giggles. Why exactly was it so wrong to look back at a village being assaulted by fire raining from the sky? If no one was supposed to look, perhaps God could've made the destruction a little more subtle.


Lot's daughters got their father drunk, then raped him." Yeah, I've been really drunk before, even drunk, high, and on acid at the same time. And not once during that time would I have "mistakenly" slept with my family members. Especially since they lived in a cave, separate from anyone that could have been confused for a bar skank.


21:1 "And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. For Sarah conceived..."

-God made a booty call


For some reason, God takes human form and wrestles Jacob. He is losing so he cheats and gropes Jacob's inner thigh.


Various pages discerning which parts of the penis to chop off.


Onan is murdered by God for spooging on the ground instead of impregnating his brother's wife.


A 7000 page story about Joseph being thought dead, but actually not.


INTERMISSION


For those of you that read this far... Bravo, you bored and dedicated souls. Obviously all the books aren't as interesting or important as Genesis, and will be skipped over (I'm looking at you Psalms).

Now I continue on with Exodus. Ahem...

Why go to Exodus dumb ass? Yew don't even know what the fourth word in the KJB means.

You need to get professional help, you've already been giving out telephone numbers on a public forum which is questionable legally. I seriously think the admins need to remove you from this forum ASAP.

You are certainly in no condition mentally or emotionally to be engaged on this forum in this manner.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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19-01-2018, 12:08 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(19-01-2018 06:22 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(19-01-2018 04:45 AM)John Curren Chapman Wrote:  Why go to Exodus dumb ass? Yew don't even know what the fourth word in the KJB means.

Please define it for us and show that it has an existent referent.

god=a slave. God=Master. GOD=GRANDMASTER. dog=bitch. Dog=Witch. DOG=Satan. Yew=god. Me= God, Son of GOD. JC
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