An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
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13-04-2017, 11:15 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(13-04-2017 10:54 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 09:40 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I think that goes too far. I think there are more accurate ways to say it.
At times, if brains are healthy and functioning well, they (can) produce what we experience as "consciousness". Consciousness is not *a* "thing". It's a total of millions of reactions which are integrated. We "experience" it as a unity, but in fact its very complex and multifactorial. Your "experience" of something takes a few micro-seconds to integrate and reference your memories of past inputs to make sense of the present inputs. You experience the "assemblage", but it's really your brain tricking you into not seeing the parts. Your eyes actually see different things, (two images). Your brain has learned (haha) how to assemble the inputs. Sometimes it fails, (for example many people with stroke have double vision).

But I think that's exactly what Searle is saying. He's arguing that the consciousness you experience is not necessarily a product of the brain, but describes a physical state of the brain. This accounts for the unity of experience because any given brain state can be defined by all of the states of all of its physical components. I think Searle correctly compares this to the liquidity of water. It's not something that is produced by water, but is a state water can be in based on temperature.

If that's what he's saying, then I am NOT saying that. Consciousness is not a 'state of the brain', it's a PRODUCT of reactions IN the brain. There never is a "brain state". Everything is moving at an incredibly fast pace. The word "state" is not appropriate. If there could be a (fraction of a nanosecond) "brain state" it would have changed so fast, there would be no experience of that state.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-04-2017, 11:31 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(13-04-2017 11:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 10:54 AM)Naielis Wrote:  But I think that's exactly what Searle is saying. He's arguing that the consciousness you experience is not necessarily a product of the brain, but describes a physical state of the brain. This accounts for the unity of experience because any given brain state can be defined by all of the states of all of its physical components. I think Searle correctly compares this to the liquidity of water. It's not something that is produced by water, but is a state water can be in based on temperature.

If that's what he's saying, then I am NOT saying that. Consciousness is not a 'state of the brain', it's a PRODUCT of reactions IN the brain. There never is a "brain state". Everything is moving at an incredibly fast pace. The word "state" is not appropriate. If there could be a (fraction of a nanosecond) "brain state" it would have changed so fast, there would be no experience of that state.

Well it could encompass multiple different brain states. To go back to the water analogy, the water could still be liquid at various different temperatures. But there are ranges of temperatures at which it loses this quality. Similarly, there are multiple different physical arrangements a brain can be in where it is conscious. But if you say consciousness is a product of the brain, then it seems you have the same problem as the property dualist: you're giving consciousness substance that it doesn't have. The liquidity of water is not something separate from the water that is created by the water. It is a property of the water that can be understood as a specific state. And a specific state encompasses a range of the variables that define the system. In the case of the water that is temperature. In the case of consciousness that is the physical arrangement of the brain.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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13-04-2017, 11:45 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(13-04-2017 11:31 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 11:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If that's what he's saying, then I am NOT saying that. Consciousness is not a 'state of the brain', it's a PRODUCT of reactions IN the brain. There never is a "brain state". Everything is moving at an incredibly fast pace. The word "state" is not appropriate. If there could be a (fraction of a nanosecond) "brain state" it would have changed so fast, there would be no experience of that state.

Well it could encompass multiple different brain states. To go back to the water analogy, the water could still be liquid at various different temperatures. But there are ranges of temperatures at which it loses this quality. Similarly, there are multiple different physical arrangements a brain can be in where it is conscious. But if you say consciousness is a product of the brain, then it seems you have the same problem as the property dualist: you're giving consciousness substance that it doesn't have. The liquidity of water is not something separate from the water that is created by the water. It is a property of the water that can be understood as a specific state. And a specific state encompasses a range of the variables that define the system. In the case of the water that is temperature. In the case of consciousness that is the physical arrangement of the brain.

There are an infinite number of physical arrangements the brain could be in. In the brain, billions of reactions are taking place. You experience the integration/sum of those reactions as consciousness. The words "states" and "products" are inaccurate and misleading descriptors.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-04-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(13-04-2017 11:45 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There are an infinite number of physical arrangements the brain could be in. In the brain, billions of reactions are taking place. You experience the integration/sum of those reactions as consciousness. The words "states" and "products" are inaccurate and misleading descriptors.

Perhaps they are inadequate terms, but I think they convey the point very well. "Integration" or "sum" also seem to work well.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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14-04-2017, 10:50 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(12-05-2011 06:13 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  I wonder what the best excuse for Michal is, maybe at the time she was 18 and had a son every year since adulthood. Not that it matters since David was dead long before this fictitious event happened.

I had to look this one up because it's quite blatant.

Apparently, it is caused by a textual problem. Some modern Bibles have corrected this problem by replacing the name Michal with Merab in 2 Sam 21:8.

The reason they think it is a copyist error and should be Merab not Michal, is because 1 Sam 18:19 says Merab was given to Adriel as a wife (and she ((Merab)) had 5 children with him). It makes sense this way, but at the very least it's an error in the bible.

Checking the Hebrew Interlinear text though, it has Michal in it.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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14-04-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(14-04-2017 10:50 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(12-05-2011 06:13 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  I wonder what the best excuse for Michal is, maybe at the time she was 18 and had a son every year since adulthood. Not that it matters since David was dead long before this fictitious event happened.

I had to look this one up because it's quite blatant.

Apparently, it is caused by a textual problem. Some modern Bibles have corrected this problem by replacing the name Michal with Merab in 2 Sam 21:8.

The reason they think it is a copyist error and should be Merab not Michal, is because 1 Sam 18:19 says Merab was given to Adriel as a wife (and she ((Merab)) had 5 children with him). It makes sense this way, but at the very least it's an error in the bible.

Checking the Hebrew Interlinear text though, it has Michal in it.

Some infallible deity this, can't even get a decent proof-reader.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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