An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
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27-03-2012, 11:07 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible
(18-03-2012 04:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(18-03-2012 12:44 PM)Dust Wrote:  Wow, quite a lot of references.
Thanks a bunch, I'll read it when I have the time.

I included them all just for interest in case anyone wants to spend a few hours reading about Mithraism LOL. Actually....it is very interesting how closely Christianity mimics this cult.


(16-03-2012 08:06 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  So I'm almost done with my second (and final) revision of the book, which IMO has made the book at least 3 times more awesome. And the only things really left are the cover picture and of course raising money for the production. I'm only hoping to break even and cover production costs (which would be about 70 sold books). At least the book would still be out there in existence for future enjoyment.

But anyways, about the cover. I was originally going to do a "me wearing a suit, smiling weirdly, while holding a flaming Bible." But I have since had a smarter idea. What if it's just a Bible being set on fire by a magnifying glass? That way, the shock value is still there and the "critique" part is being represented by the magnifying glass. I am critiquing the book and the book is collapsing under the scrutiny. And it's easier to do (I can take the picture myself).

Also, I won't have to be in the picture. I don't want people to not buy my book because they think I'm unattractive or weird looking.

Just an idea.......that involves a lot of work.........have you thought about setting up a web page and then selling it as an ebook? You might make some money! I'm going to try to do that with my book.

Actually I won't have to. Self-publishing sites like Lulu and BookSurge have basic publishing packages that make your book available as an ebook for Kindle, while also putting it on Amazon and Barnes and Noble sites. Wee bit expensive but I'm hoping to recoup production costs (about 60 books need to sell).

And I would have had the book out by now, but I'm moving to South Carolina in a month and I want to make sure I have enough money for rent and stuff.


(27-03-2012 04:36 PM)james5000 Wrote:  The Bible is not a history manual nor a scientific manual. The Bible is a spiritual manual, the complete spiritual manual; the spiritual manual par excellence. The Bible is not the only spiritual manual because there are other 'spiritual manuals' which are very good too.

Therefore it cannot be said that the Bible is rubbish and it's ok to criticise it because it's irrelevant. When rightly understood, the Bible can provide the reader with all the knowledge the reader needs to reach God.

I'm not critiquing the Bible as a history or science textbook, I'm critiquing it as this so-called spiritual manual. The science and history contradictions and inaccuracies pointed out are only to emphasize the fact that the handbook from God is full of false information, hopefully leading readers to understand that it was written by uneducated men. But my focal point is to examine the moral actions and teachings of this supposedly moral deity. And after revealing him to be a genocidal, homophobic, misogynistic lunatic... the question is, would you really WANT to "reach God."

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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28-03-2012, 02:16 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible
(27-03-2012 04:36 PM)james5000 Wrote:  The Bible is not a history manual nor a scientific manual. The Bible is a spiritual manual, the complete spiritual manual; the spiritual manual par excellence. The Bible is not the only spiritual manual because there are other 'spiritual manuals' which are very good too.

Therefore it cannot be said that the Bible is rubbish and it's ok to criticise it because it's irrelevant. When rightly understood, the Bible can provide the reader with all the knowledge the reader needs to reach God.
Hi, welcome! I agree with Buddy Christ.

I'm intrigued as to why you think the bible is a "spiritual manual par excellence." Please fill me in. I've been studying it for the last seven years and have found precisely the opposite. Have you ever actually read more than a few paragraphs at a time? Please be honest. Perhaps you could tell me which part(s) you find so wonderful?

Have you read "an atheist's critique of the bible?" If so, do you have anything specific to say?
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29-03-2012, 09:50 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible
I would really like to hear the opinions of our new WCF friends on this thread/critique.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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30-03-2012, 11:23 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible
(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Yep. This is gonna be a long one.

Feel free to throw your own logical dissections at any time.


GENESIS


First off, I'm skipping the whole "how were plants created before light/photosynthesis, how was light created before the sun, contradictions of which was created first" word games. Those take up too much time and words and pie.


1:16 "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

-The moon is not a light, it is a reflection of the sun's light. This is the first of many examples that suggest that God's omnipotence seems to be limited to the knowledge of the demographics and time period of when the Bible was written. Strange.


1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

-Our? Just how many gods are there?


2:2 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

-even though they say that God only "rested" to set an example of how would should rest on the 7th day, couldn't the Bible just say "rest on Sunday" ??(question mark)? It clearly says God rested, which means that this all-powerful being was worn out from all those valleys and hills and Wyoming and platypuses.


The Garden and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil


-Sooooo... God takes these 2 newly formed, ignorant to life humans, puts them in a garden with a tree bearing food, nonchalantly goes "don't eat from it" ... then leaves... to go make Venus, I guess. And you know the rest.

So... WHY did he put them near the tree? WHY did he have that which he didn't want humans to attain be edible and tempting? WHY did he leave? WHY did he allow Satan the Snake to be in the garden, knowing full well that he would tempt them? Why did God design these 2 humans to be susceptible to temptation?

Then God comes strolling by (3:8 "walking in the garden in the cool of the day") at the PRECISE moment after they eat the fruit and goes "whoa whoa, what's going on here?" (I'm paraphrasing, of course)

It's like having a 2 year old child and going "Now son, I'm going to leave these delicious chocolate chip cookies sitting right here within reach of you. I'm going to the store to buy some Funyuns. Don't eat them. Bye!" When any caring parent would remove temptation, knowing that the child doesn't know any better.

So it's quite obvious to me that God WANTED man to F up royally. God created man with the sole purpose of imposing "original sin" upon him, so that he may feel guilty and grovel and ask forgiveness for something that wasn't his fault for all eternity.

That child who ate the cookies is now 40 and the parent is still bringing it up daily. "I don't care if you saved an orphanage from burning down today... remember when I told you not to eat those cookies and you did?"


Cain slays Abel and is "cast out" arbitrarily from one remote location of this empty world to another random remote location. Then he worries that "every one that findeth me shall slay me."

-This is a strange worry since he is 1 of 3 people in existence. Then he sleeps with his wife to start the incestual chain of humanity... but where did his wife come from?


6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days"

-I'm assuming these are literal giants and not "intellectual giants" or some modern term.


Then the Lord decides that all humanity is corrupt and needs to be massacred via flood.

-One... why the need for an elaborate flood? Why not just use your God powers and make every one not exist? You can only create from nothing, not turn into nothing? Two, were we not already told that men were made in His image? So either God is evil and corrupt, which is why we turned out like we did before and after the flood... or he is incapable of creating things how he wants. God is a flawed designer.

Maybe that's why he doesn't show his face anymore. He tried once, messed up and started over. Then he was like "whoa hold on, hold on. No, stop making more people. Wait, why did you kill that guy? Stop fucking! There's too many of you already! You know what!? Fuck this, I'm out!"


Then there's the Ark which I won't discuss do to redundancy. There are thousands of videos mocking this obvious nonsensical fairy tale already. The average thinker explaining the flaws of Noah and his ark is analogous to a world renowned chemist giving a lecture on the validity of alchemy.


Then Noah (the only righteous man in the world) gets hammered on wine and passes out naked.


Then the humans build an impressive tower and God (completely caught off guard) confuses them by making them speak multiple languages because their tower was more impressive than the one he made in shop class.


Many pages of slaves and servitude and historical inaccuracies and more incest


18:9 "And God said unto him, 'Where is Sarah thy wife?'" You're omnipotent, God. Quit messing with me. And stop asking about my wife, perv.


Lot offers his virgin daughters to a mob of rapists to appease their lust for the sexually attractive angels


God burns Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground, including all those "evil" children and newborn babies.


God turns Lot's wife in a pillar of salt just for kicks and giggles. Why exactly was it so wrong to look back at a village being assaulted by fire raining from the sky? If no one was supposed to look, perhaps God could've made the destruction a little more subtle.


Lot's daughters got their father drunk, then raped him." Yeah, I've been really drunk before, even drunk, high, and on acid at the same time. And not once during that time would I have "mistakenly" slept with my family members. Especially since they lived in a cave, separate from anyone that could have been confused for a bar skank.


21:1 "And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. For Sarah conceived..."

-God made a booty call


For some reason, God takes human form and wrestles Jacob. He is losing so he cheats and gropes Jacob's inner thigh.


Various pages discerning which parts of the penis to chop off.


Onan is murdered by God for spooging on the ground instead of impregnating his brother's wife.


A 7000 page story about Joseph being thought dead, but actually not.


INTERMISSION


For those of you that read this far... Bravo, you bored and dedicated souls. Obviously all the books aren't as interesting or important as Genesis, and will be skipped over (I'm looking at you Psalms).

Now I continue on with Exodus. Ahem...

Dammit, stop with that PEARL stuff. These poor fairy tales can't keep up!
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21-04-2012, 05:55 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible
Bible is a book written around 3200 years back. The people cannot understand the most intelligent creation methods God used then. So it explained only an introduction to creation and to many other things in simplest terms that most people can understand. Its aim to teach people, How to live a better life, not to teach anthropology or genetics.
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21-04-2012, 08:40 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible
The Bible was written to bring a nation together culturally and religiously, to demonize people from surrounding nations, to lay down laws, to increase confidence in the nation's military prowess, to console that nation as its powers waned, and eventually to build up a new cult and export it to Rome. It hardly talks about the spiritual at all except to justify crimes against humanity and to celebrate military victories until you get to the new testament, and again that is really about the nation of Israel transforming itself from a state to a more disconnected people.
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26-04-2012, 10:42 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible
(21-04-2012 08:40 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  The Bible was written to bring a nation together culturally and religiously, to demonize people from surrounding nations, to lay down laws, to increase confidence in the nation's military prowess, to console that nation as its powers waned, and eventually to build up a new cult and export it to Rome. It hardly talks about the spiritual at all except to justify crimes against humanity and to celebrate military victories until you get to the new testament, and again that is really about the nation of Israel transforming itself from a state to a more disconnected people.
Gonna jump in here: I must say as someone who studies the Scriptures for a living (pastor and seminary student) that your comment is a little missing the mark. The Bible was written to reveal the true God and His gracious plan of redemption for humanity through His Son Jesus Christ. Your comments about "to demonize people from surrounding nations," "to lay down laws," and "eventually to build up a new cult and export it to Rome," are simply not true. Frankly, they are straw men that sound like something you heard by some militant atheist or read in a book somewhere.


Here's my response to those three assertions you are making about the Bible:
  1. The Bible, specifically the first five books called the Torah, is clear that Israel wasn't any better than any of the surrounding nations, actually they were just as wicked as them ("Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the LORD you God is driving them out from before you...know therefore, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people." - Deuteronomy 9:5-6). Clearly, God was using Israel as an instrument of judgment upon the pagan Canaanites who engaged abominable practices and idolatrous worship. And God warned Israel that if they engaged in the same practices as the Canaanites that He would judge them and remove them from the land as well which is exactly what happened to Israel (see Leviticus 26:14-46; Deut 28:15-68; 30:11-20; 2 Kings 25)
  2. The assertion that the Bible was written to "lay down laws" is partially true though not for the reason you are surmising. Israel didn't lay down laws, God did as a testimony to His holy & moral character, which is most clearly expressed in the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20. Just by reading them on the surface these commandments resonate with every one of us because they are "holy, righteous, and good" (Rom 7:12). The problem is not with the Law of God, the problem is with me! I'm not naturally holy, or righteous, or good--only God is! Therefore, people naturally suppress the truth about God (Rom 1:18) which includes His law and strive to do what is right in their own eyes (Judges 21:25) not realizing that they are rejecting the very revelation of God that is designed (in one sense) to lead them to the knowledge of the truth which is the need for salvation from this holy God who amazingly has provided the salvation for mankind in Christ alone!
  3. When you said "[b]eventually to build up a new cult and export it to Rome" I'm assuming you are referring to Christianity. Once again I find this statement to be a farce of the actual truth. While it is true that the opponents of Christianity thought of it as a cult or sect, the first century church did not. They saw it for what is really was which is the ultimate fulfillment of everything that was promised to the nation of Israel. Jesus of Nazareth WAS the promised Messiah that God had prophesied would come and make atonement for sin, providing reconciliation back to God not only for Jews but for the entire world (Luke 24:13-53; Acts 2:14-41; 3:11-26; Isaiah 52:13-53:12; Jeremiah 33:14-17). Every essential doctrine of Christianity: the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ, justification by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, revealed in Scripture alone, Jesus as the functional Head of the Church, His Second Coming and Final Judgment of the wicked (those who die in their sins apart from Christ) and the righteous (those who have had their sins paid for in full by Christ) is completely counter intuitive to human thinking and reasoning that you cannot explain it as fairy tales and philosophical awnings of uneducated men and women who just made all of it up. Want proof of that? Just look at all the other cults in the world (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Unitarian Universalists, etc.) and see how their doctrine contradicts Christian orthodoxy on every one of their points. [/b]
Thoughts?
--THEOtalk
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28-04-2012, 01:37 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible
(26-04-2012 10:42 AM)THEOtalk Wrote:  The Bible was written to reveal the true God and His gracious plan of redemption for humanity through His Son Jesus Christ.


NO. The grand pay-back scheme, (salvation) was not known to the Hebrews, until the Greeks, gave them the idea. You have not one external shred of evidence for that assertion. It's all BS. How can a professional, actually be SO ignorant of his own field ? The Hebews were every bit as "pagan" as their contemporaries, and neighbors. You need to take some History courses on Ancient Near Eastern cultures, before spouting falsehoods. Did you go to Bible College ? The Ten Commandments came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm

According to Wikipedia:

Quote:
"Some historians....have argued that the Ten Commandments originated from ancient Egyptian religion, and postulate that the Biblical Jews borrowed the concept after their Exodus from Egypt. Chapter 125 of the [Egyptian] Book of the Dead (a.k.a. the Papyrus of Ani) includes a list of things to which a man must swear in order to enter the afterlife. These sworn statements bear a remarkable resemblance to the Ten Commandments in their nature and their phrasing.....The Book of the Dead has additional requirements, and, of course, doesn't require worship of Yahweh."

The Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE. 2 The Schofield Reference Bible estimates that the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later. Many religious liberals, historians, and secularists have concluded that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier document, rather than vice-versa.

[Image: topruled.gif]
About the Egyptian "Book of the Dead:"

The ancient Egyptian religion taught that person had to undergo trials after death as they proceeded towards the underworld.

One major test was that the weight of their heart was compared to that of a feather. This appears to be a test that everyone would fail. Egyptians believed that If the person had committed sin during his or her lifetime, then their heart would become heavier. The heart does naturally gain weight with age. The Egyptians might have noticed this and assumed that the weight gain was caused by the commission of sins. Unfortunately, there appears to be no chance that the deceased person can pass that test. Adult hearts weigh over a half pound (227 grams). A male heart typically weighs 280 to 340 grams. Female hearts weigh from 230 to 280 grams. 3 A feather weighs a small fraction of a pound.The Book of the Dead states that: "The god Thoth would record the results and the monster Ammit would wait nearby to eat the heart should it prove unworthy." Presumably, failing this test and having one's heart eaten would not be an encouraging sign for one's future well being.

A second second trial was that the deceased would have to recite a negative confession "when [she or] he descends to the hall of the Two Truths." In the statement, he or she swore that they had not engaged in specific behaviors while alive. According to Egyptologist Ahmed Osman, one translation of the statement reads:

Quote:
"Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
I have not reviled the God.
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
I have not done what the God abominates . . .
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .
I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...
I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.
I have not blocked the God at his processions. 5

[Image: topruled.gif]
Comparison of ancient Egyptian and Hebrew texts:

A comparison of the Book of the Dead text with the version of the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20:2-17 is striking. Both consist of a series of negative statements.

Comparing another translation of the Book with the King James Version of Exodus:

[Image: topbul1d.gif]
Book of the Dead: "I have done away sin for thee and not acted fraudulently or deceitfully. I have not belittled God. I have not inflicted pain or caused another to weep. I have not murdered or given such an order. I have not used false balances or scales. I have not purloined (held back) the offerings to the gods. I have not stolen. I have not uttered lies or curses."

[Image: topbul1d.gif]
Exodus 20:7-16: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain....Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery...Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor..." 6,7


One major difference between the two documents is that statues of the Gods and Goddesses formed a major part of the ancient Egyptian religion. The religion of the ancient Hebrews forbade any image or statue of Yahweh. Another difference was the Decalogue's emphasis on the Sabbath -- one day of rest each week. It is not found in the Book of the Dead or in ancient Egyptian culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8

Time to get an education, and stop spouting the nonsense you were fed, before it's too late.

The Messiah was a political leader, and THAT's how the Apostles thought of him. Acts 1 : "Wilt Thou O Lord, at this time, restore the Kingdom to Israel". At THAT time, THAT late, there is NO evidence of your "salvation" stuff.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
Political skeptic .. if there is a bad reason something bad might have happened, you can bet your ass, that's why it happened.
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28-04-2012, 02:05 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible
(28-04-2012 01:37 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-04-2012 10:42 AM)THEOtalk Wrote:  The Bible was written to reveal the true God and His gracious plan of redemption for humanity through His Son Jesus Christ.


NO. The grand pay-back scheme, (salvation) was not known to the Hebrews, until the Greeks, gave them the idea. You have not one external shred of evidence for that assertion. It's all BS. How can a professional, actually be SO ignorant of his own field ? The Hebews were every bit as "pagan" as their contemporaries, and neighbors. You need to take some History courses on Ancient Near Eastern cultures, before spouting falsehoods. Did you go to Bible College ? The Ten Commandments came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm

According to Wikipedia:

Quote:
"Some historians....have argued that the Ten Commandments originated from ancient Egyptian religion, and postulate that the Biblical Jews borrowed the concept after their Exodus from Egypt. Chapter 125 of the [Egyptian] Book of the Dead (a.k.a. the Papyrus of Ani) includes a list of things to which a man must swear in order to enter the afterlife. These sworn statements bear a remarkable resemblance to the Ten Commandments in their nature and their phrasing.....The Book of the Dead has additional requirements, and, of course, doesn't require worship of Yahweh."

The Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE. 2 The Schofield Reference Bible estimates that the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later. Many religious liberals, historians, and secularists have concluded that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier document, rather than vice-versa.

[Image: topruled.gif]
About the Egyptian "Book of the Dead:"

The ancient Egyptian religion taught that person had to undergo trials after death as they proceeded towards the underworld.

One major test was that the weight of their heart was compared to that of a feather. This appears to be a test that everyone would fail. Egyptians believed that If the person had committed sin during his or her lifetime, then their heart would become heavier. The heart does naturally gain weight with age. The Egyptians might have noticed this and assumed that the weight gain was caused by the commission of sins. Unfortunately, there appears to be no chance that the deceased person can pass that test. Adult hearts weigh over a half pound (227 grams). A male heart typically weighs 280 to 340 grams. Female hearts weigh from 230 to 280 grams. 3 A feather weighs a small fraction of a pound.The Book of the Dead states that: "The god Thoth would record the results and the monster Ammit would wait nearby to eat the heart should it prove unworthy." Presumably, failing this test and having one's heart eaten would not be an encouraging sign for one's future well being.

A second second trial was that the deceased would have to recite a negative confession "when [she or] he descends to the hall of the Two Truths." In the statement, he or she swore that they had not engaged in specific behaviors while alive. According to Egyptologist Ahmed Osman, one translation of the statement reads:

Quote:
"Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
I have not reviled the God.
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
I have not done what the God abominates . . .
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .
I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...
I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.
I have not blocked the God at his processions. 5

[Image: topruled.gif]
Comparison of ancient Egyptian and Hebrew texts:

A comparison of the Book of the Dead text with the version of the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20:2-17 is striking. Both consist of a series of negative statements.

Comparing another translation of the Book with the King James Version of Exodus:

[Image: topbul1d.gif]
Book of the Dead: "I have done away sin for thee and not acted fraudulently or deceitfully. I have not belittled God. I have not inflicted pain or caused another to weep. I have not murdered or given such an order. I have not used false balances or scales. I have not purloined (held back) the offerings to the gods. I have not stolen. I have not uttered lies or curses."

[Image: topbul1d.gif]
Exodus 20:7-16: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain....Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery...Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor..." 6,7


One major difference between the two documents is that statues of the Gods and Goddesses formed a major part of the ancient Egyptian religion. The religion of the ancient Hebrews forbade any image or statue of Yahweh. Another difference was the Decalogue's emphasis on the Sabbath -- one day of rest each week. It is not found in the Book of the Dead or in ancient Egyptian culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8

Time to get an education, and stop spouting the nonsense you were fed, before it's too late.

The Messiah was a political leader, and THAT's how the Apostles thought of him. Acts 1 : "Wilt Thou O Lord, at this time, restore the Kingdom to Israel". At THAT time, THAT late, there is NO evidence of your "salvation" stuff.
Yes, theotalk, there is hope for you yet!

Repent, for the kingdom of reason and common sense is at hand!

When you were a child you thought and talked like a child. Now you have entered the atheist forum, and you are free to learn and use common sense.
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28-04-2012, 09:43 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible
(28-04-2012 01:37 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-04-2012 10:42 AM)THEOtalk Wrote:  The Bible was written to reveal the true God and His gracious plan of redemption for humanity through His Son Jesus Christ.


NO. The grand pay-back scheme, (salvation) was not known to the Hebrews, until the Greeks, gave them the idea. You have not one external shred of evidence for that assertion. It's all BS. How can a professional, actually be SO ignorant of his own field ? The Hebews were every bit as "pagan" as their contemporaries, and neighbors. You need to take some History courses on Ancient Near Eastern cultures, before spouting falsehoods. Did you go to Bible College ? The Ten Commandments came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm

According to Wikipedia:

Quote:
"Some historians....have argued that the Ten Commandments originated from ancient Egyptian religion, and postulate that the Biblical Jews borrowed the concept after their Exodus from Egypt. Chapter 125 of the [Egyptian] Book of the Dead (a.k.a. the Papyrus of Ani) includes a list of things to which a man must swear in order to enter the afterlife. These sworn statements bear a remarkable resemblance to the Ten Commandments in their nature and their phrasing.....The Book of the Dead has additional requirements, and, of course, doesn't require worship of Yahweh."

The Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE. 2 The Schofield Reference Bible estimates that the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later. Many religious liberals, historians, and secularists have concluded that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier document, rather than vice-versa.

[Image: topruled.gif]
About the Egyptian "Book of the Dead:"

The ancient Egyptian religion taught that person had to undergo trials after death as they proceeded towards the underworld.

One major test was that the weight of their heart was compared to that of a feather. This appears to be a test that everyone would fail. Egyptians believed that If the person had committed sin during his or her lifetime, then their heart would become heavier. The heart does naturally gain weight with age. The Egyptians might have noticed this and assumed that the weight gain was caused by the commission of sins. Unfortunately, there appears to be no chance that the deceased person can pass that test. Adult hearts weigh over a half pound (227 grams). A male heart typically weighs 280 to 340 grams. Female hearts weigh from 230 to 280 grams. 3 A feather weighs a small fraction of a pound.The Book of the Dead states that: "The god Thoth would record the results and the monster Ammit would wait nearby to eat the heart should it prove unworthy." Presumably, failing this test and having one's heart eaten would not be an encouraging sign for one's future well being.

A second second trial was that the deceased would have to recite a negative confession "when [she or] he descends to the hall of the Two Truths." In the statement, he or she swore that they had not engaged in specific behaviors while alive. According to Egyptologist Ahmed Osman, one translation of the statement reads:

Quote:
"Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
I have not reviled the God.
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
I have not done what the God abominates . . .
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .
I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...
I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.
I have not blocked the God at his processions. 5

[Image: topruled.gif]
Comparison of ancient Egyptian and Hebrew texts:

A comparison of the Book of the Dead text with the version of the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20:2-17 is striking. Both consist of a series of negative statements.

Comparing another translation of the Book with the King James Version of Exodus:

[Image: topbul1d.gif]
Book of the Dead: "I have done away sin for thee and not acted fraudulently or deceitfully. I have not belittled God. I have not inflicted pain or caused another to weep. I have not murdered or given such an order. I have not used false balances or scales. I have not purloined (held back) the offerings to the gods. I have not stolen. I have not uttered lies or curses."

[Image: topbul1d.gif]
Exodus 20:7-16: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain....Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery...Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor..." 6,7


One major difference between the two documents is that statues of the Gods and Goddesses formed a major part of the ancient Egyptian religion. The religion of the ancient Hebrews forbade any image or statue of Yahweh. Another difference was the Decalogue's emphasis on the Sabbath -- one day of rest each week. It is not found in the Book of the Dead or in ancient Egyptian culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8

Time to get an education, and stop spouting the nonsense you were fed, before it's too late.

The Messiah was a political leader, and THAT's how the Apostles thought of him. Acts 1 : "Wilt Thou O Lord, at this time, restore the Kingdom to Israel". At THAT time, THAT late, there is NO evidence of your "salvation" stuff.
Ya blah, blah, blah I know there's some obscure YouTube video that some atheist kid made in his dorm after sitting in some secular philosophy or anthropology class that "completely blew his mind..." Ya I get it BB--nice citation of Wikipedia there too, btw, you know since WIKI says it it must be true.... Thumbsup


Also, just because the Decalogue somewhat resembled the Egyptian "Book of the Dead" doesn't prove anything. If anything that bears witness to the fact that the Israelites WERE at one time in Egypt and ingrained in Egyptian culture & religion which would contradict your home movie there on YouTube.

The Exodus account actually bears striking resemblance to the ancient Near East Hittite suzerain treaties where the great king (the suzerain) would unilaterally impose conditions on the lesser party (the vassal) and a copy of the treaty was deposited in the shrine of each capital. These international treaties included a preamble that would identify the treaty maker as the sovereign king over his people. Following the preamble, a historical prologue justifies the suzerain's right over the vassal. This is followed by a list of stipulations (commands) with attendant sanctions (life & death, blessing & curse) for obedience and disobedience to the covenant at hand. We see this exact pattern in the Pentateuch with the book of Genesis and Exodus 1-19 as the historical prologue, Exodus 20-24 as the preamble, and the rest of Exodus as well as Leviticus and Deuteronomy as the stipulations indicting Israel to heed the stipulations of the covenant to YAHWEH because of His redemption of them out of slavery. (if you want to read real scholarship on the issue try G.E. Mendenhall, Law & Covenant in Israel and the Ancient Near East, Meredith Kline, The Treaty of the Great King, and Viktor Korosec's Hethitische Staatsvertraege)


Thanks for the constructive feedback BB, now I know where the stereotype of the "vitriolic atheist" comes from. Also you might want to keep in mind that since the Enlightenment the proclivity of secular historians has been to interpret & reconstruct ancient history within a post-Enlightenment worldview which of course means a naturalistic materialism where miracles cannot occur, atheism is the most plausible epistemology, and any claim to truth that comes from a non-scientific source is to be rejected on principal of the fact/value dichotomy.

But ever since the first century, long before the Enlightenment and Hume, Kant, and the rest, Christianity progressed and has continued to progress on the basis of its public, eye-witness testimony to the person and work of Jesus Christ. Your "religious conspiracy theory" is comical and belongs there right up there next to the fallacious writings and accusations of Dan Brown.
(28-04-2012 02:05 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(28-04-2012 01:37 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  NO. The grand pay-back scheme, (salvation) was not known to the Hebrews, until the Greeks, gave them the idea. You have not one external shred of evidence for that assertion. It's all BS. How can a professional, actually be SO ignorant of his own field ? The Hebews were every bit as "pagan" as their contemporaries, and neighbors. You need to take some History courses on Ancient Near Eastern cultures, before spouting falsehoods. Did you go to Bible College ? The Ten Commandments came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm

According to Wikipedia:


The Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE. 2 The Schofield Reference Bible estimates that the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later. Many religious liberals, historians, and secularists have concluded that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier document, rather than vice-versa.

[Image: topruled.gif]
About the Egyptian "Book of the Dead:"

The ancient Egyptian religion taught that person had to undergo trials after death as they proceeded towards the underworld.

One major test was that the weight of their heart was compared to that of a feather. This appears to be a test that everyone would fail. Egyptians believed that If the person had committed sin during his or her lifetime, then their heart would become heavier. The heart does naturally gain weight with age. The Egyptians might have noticed this and assumed that the weight gain was caused by the commission of sins. Unfortunately, there appears to be no chance that the deceased person can pass that test. Adult hearts weigh over a half pound (227 grams). A male heart typically weighs 280 to 340 grams. Female hearts weigh from 230 to 280 grams. 3 A feather weighs a small fraction of a pound.The Book of the Dead states that: "The god Thoth would record the results and the monster Ammit would wait nearby to eat the heart should it prove unworthy." Presumably, failing this test and having one's heart eaten would not be an encouraging sign for one's future well being.

A second second trial was that the deceased would have to recite a negative confession "when [she or] he descends to the hall of the Two Truths." In the statement, he or she swore that they had not engaged in specific behaviors while alive. According to Egyptologist Ahmed Osman, one translation of the statement reads:


[Image: topruled.gif]
Comparison of ancient Egyptian and Hebrew texts:

A comparison of the Book of the Dead text with the version of the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20:2-17 is striking. Both consist of a series of negative statements.

Comparing another translation of the Book with the King James Version of Exodus:

[Image: topbul1d.gif]
Book of the Dead: "I have done away sin for thee and not acted fraudulently or deceitfully. I have not belittled God. I have not inflicted pain or caused another to weep. I have not murdered or given such an order. I have not used false balances or scales. I have not purloined (held back) the offerings to the gods. I have not stolen. I have not uttered lies or curses."

[Image: topbul1d.gif]
Exodus 20:7-16: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain....Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery...Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor..." 6,7


One major difference between the two documents is that statues of the Gods and Goddesses formed a major part of the ancient Egyptian religion. The religion of the ancient Hebrews forbade any image or statue of Yahweh. Another difference was the Decalogue's emphasis on the Sabbath -- one day of rest each week. It is not found in the Book of the Dead or in ancient Egyptian culture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8

Time to get an education, and stop spouting the nonsense you were fed, before it's too late.

The Messiah was a political leader, and THAT's how the Apostles thought of him. Acts 1 : "Wilt Thou O Lord, at this time, restore the Kingdom to Israel". At THAT time, THAT late, there is NO evidence of your "salvation" stuff.
Yes, theotalk, there is hope for you yet!

Repent, for the kingdom of reason and common sense is at hand!

When you were a child you thought and talked like a child. Now you have entered the atheist forum, and you are free to learn and use common sense.
By "Kingdom of reason" you mean that we came from nothing, are here for nothing, and are going nowhere right? YES!!!!! THAT SOUNDS COMPLETELY RATIONAL....SIGN ME UP FOR THAT NONSENSE!!!!! I therefore assume that like Sarte, Nietzsche and other atheistic existentialists that you're also a nihilist correct? But that would be inconsistent with actual life because no one can live and function as a nihilist in society and continue to survive. Therefore, as CS Lewis and Alvin Plantiga and others have argued, if a worldview cannot be consistently lived out, it is there erroneous and not plausible for actual reality.

I'd love to see you apply your "Repent, for the kingdom of reason and common sense is at hand! When you were a child you thought and talked like a child. Now you have entered the atheist forum, and you are free to learn and use common sense" to men such as Lewis, Tolkien, Schaeffer, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Sproul, Keller, Dembski, Meyer, Behe, and others who are scholars in philosophy and science but find the case for philosophical naturalism and materialism seriously lacking.
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