An atheist's quandary!
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24-11-2012, 11:12 PM
RE: An atheist's quandary!
Hey, DLJ.

The ostracism part of this case isn't an evolution thing, it's an extortion thing.

Quote:Liberty vs. security is always a trade-off.

I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who once said a society that is willing to trade a little liberty for a little security deserves neither and will lose both.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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25-11-2012, 12:47 AM
RE: An atheist's quandary!
If you support her, support solely on issues of privacy, free speech, and so forth. The case does have merits on these grounds. If you oppose her, oppose her solely on the grounds that the issues of
privacy, free speech, etc are NOT sufficient to support a case.

Either way, the religious aspect is bogus. This is not a case of one religion being established over another, nor one being persecuted -- EVERYONE gets the ID regardless of religious stance. IIRC, the mark of the beast was supposed to be on the hand and specifically be 6-6-6, which doesn't apply to the ID card worn around the neck, and is probably why only one Christian (in a Texas school of all places) is upset about it. A line does need to be drawn between respecting religious freedom, and allowing any degree of latitude to someone if they just play the "it's against my religion" card.

I'd be particularly worried if an exception gets carved out for people of one religion -- that is, everyone has to carry these cards UNLESS they're on a list of religions that are exempt.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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25-11-2012, 01:02 AM
RE: An atheist's quandary!
If her sole issue is with the "mark of the beast" bullshit, then in supporting her, we would only be supporting her religious delerium. The GPS big-brother thing seems to be irrelevant to her, and thus, to the issue at hand. With this being the case, it would be a mistake to support her.

The GPS-tracker itself is another issue for another time.

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25-11-2012, 02:10 AM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2012 02:46 AM by Janus.)
RE: An atheist's quandary!
(24-11-2012 09:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  Now wait just a damn minute.

It is an RFID chip, not GPS. RFID is very short range and can only be used to track things like entry into rooms where the doorway is instrumented.

It can not track anyone beyond the school. Not quite Orwellian.


But pretty damn fucking close! And getting there in an awful hurry!
FYI: the UK today already has well over 10 million public, authority controlled CCTV cameras installed, monitoring streets, squares, malls, etc. etc. And with IR and drones they can also look inside buildings, including your bedroom!, too!
Not even Orwell foresaw that monstrous system!
Add to that the millions of private CCTV cameras!

I'll wager a bet that New York, Tokyo, and your home town aren't far behind.

Quote:It can not track anyone beyond the school.

1) That's purely wishful thinking! You don't know that!
RFID readers are the size of half a smartphone and can be hidden anywhere, including everywhere outside the school grounds. And they can read RFID chips – with current technology – at up to 20 feet distance already!
If 'they' want to track someone beyond school it's simple: you pick them up with RFID at the exact moment they exit the school grounds and then you monitor them with a drone. Easy as pie.
Or 'they' place RFID readers at nexus points along the route the 'subject' is supposed to take. Etc. etc.
And all kinds of combinations of surveillance techniques.

2) RFID systems can not only track and register – for eternity – where you were at what time, it can consequently also track and register where you were not at what time!

I have RFID chips in my passport and drivers license, which you are legally obliged to carry at all times (how convenient!) for ID purposes. And yes: I carry them in a wallet with a home-made double tin-foil sandwich lining. For all the above reasons.

Of course it is all completely academic since we all carry cellphones now, our 'personal tracking beacon'! So here's a tip: when you go rob a bank first switch off your cellphone!
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25-11-2012, 03:33 AM
RE: An atheist's quandary!
(24-11-2012 11:12 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, DLJ.

The ostracism part of this case isn't an evolution thing, it's an extortion thing.

Quote:Liberty vs. security is always a trade-off.

I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who once said a society that is willing to trade a little liberty for a little security deserves neither and will lose both.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Hey, Ghost.

OK, In that case, extortion must be an evolution thing.

We have evolved (according to Jonathan Haidt) 6 traits of morality:

1. Empathy (harm / care)
2. Fairness / reciprocity
3. Liberty
4. In-group / loyalty
5. Authority / respect
6. Purity / sanctity

I can see where 'ostracism' fits into this model (as an abuse of #4) and maybe 'extortion' (as an abuse of #5).
So I stand by what I said.

I was expecting that Franklin retort but not from you.

I don't disagree with him but the truth is we make this trade all the time... personally, for our families, in business, nationally and internationally.
(but we have discussed before how we make different decisions about these 6 moralities depending on whether we are behaving as an individual or as a pack)

Example:
We are at liberty to cross a busy road anywhere we please but for reasons of personal security/safety we choose to follow a predefined process and cross when the lights are in our favour.

In some countries it is illegal to jaywalk. Society has decreed this to be the rule... not for our safety per se nor for sake of the potential trauma for the driver who kills you but actually to ensure efficiency and productivity (road incidents cost money!).

Any questions?

War and Hate and Apathy
DLJ

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25-11-2012, 03:49 AM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2012 04:25 AM by Janus.)
RE: An atheist's quandary!
(24-11-2012 09:33 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I would have just wrapped it in tin foil.


That doesn't solve anything in this case because, yes, 'they' wouldn't be able to track her anymore, but she would still not have access to the library, the cafetaria, the vending machines, and everything else 'they' make dependent on that RFID chip. That's the extortion angle of this thing!

And look into the future: RFID is ideal as a fast and automatic registration/payment system for students (and everybody else!) in public transport! My country already has that! Obligatory by law! Without RFID no public transport for you! So wherever you go, and when: 'they' know! No privacy for you!

Add to that the rapid emergence of GPS-based vehicle tracking systems to counter vehicle theft – you know your next car* will probably have that because insurance companies will insist on it – and there's no place you can go, at no time of the day or night, where 'they' can't track you!

*Hell, they are even pushing it for motorbikes, bicycles, boats, small planes, every-fucking-insurable-thing you can use for transportation! Next we'll have RFID implanted under our skin. As the steady patrons of many large dance clubs and discotheques already have today!
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25-11-2012, 04:11 AM
RE: An atheist's quandary!
(25-11-2012 03:49 AM)Janus Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 09:33 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I would have just wrapped it in tin foil.


That doesn't solve anything in this case because, yes, 'they' wouldn't be able to track her anymore, but she would still not have access to the library, the cafetaria, the vending machines, and everything else 'they' make dependent on that RFID chip. That's the extortion angle of this thing!


WTF has any of this got to do with extortion?

Extortion definition: The practice of obtaining something, esp. money, through force or threats.

This is just Service Management.

In her world, the number of the beast must be 'ISO20000'!

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25-11-2012, 04:28 AM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2012 04:49 AM by Janus.)
RE: An atheist's quandary!
(25-11-2012 04:11 AM)DLJ Wrote:  This is just Service Management.

Wow! A picture perfect example of Newspeak!
Is your real name O'Brien maybe?
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25-11-2012, 04:51 AM
RE: An atheist's quandary!
(25-11-2012 04:28 AM)Janus Wrote:  
(25-11-2012 04:11 AM)DLJ Wrote:  This is just Service Management.

Wow! A perfect example of Newspeak!
Orwell would be proud of you.

Which simply shows your lack of knowledge of the subject.

Service Management is simply process.

Good process will delivery the outcomes that have been defined.

Those outcomes could be totalitarian or utilitarian or whatever we (or the insidious 'they') want them to be.

In this case, the desired outcomes could be:
1. Efficient and effective governance to get the best results for the most students
2. Oppression of the students' liberty

Which is most likely?

You decide.

And btw, there really is a monster under your bed!

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25-11-2012, 04:56 AM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2012 05:03 AM by Janus.)
RE: An atheist's quandary!
(25-11-2012 04:51 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Which simply shows your lack of knowledge of the subject.

Service Management is simply process.

Good process will delivery the outcomes that have been defined.

Those outcomes could be totalitarian or utilitarian or whatever we (or the insidious 'they') want them to be.

In this case, the desired outcomes could be:
1. Efficient and effective governance to get the best results for the most students
2. Oppression of the students' liberty

Which is most likely?

Bla-bla-bla. Bury it under a pile of bureaucratese/management mumbo jumbo/Newspeak.

Quote:You decide.

Yep! You're O'Brien! Big Grin
I'd recognize your type anywhere, old fart!
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