An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
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11-05-2013, 11:05 PM
An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
In my first thread, a poster by the title 'Ghost' had this to say:

"The so-called racial traits are absolutely the result of selection and genetic drift and any geneticist or Darwinist worth a damn will confirm that. It's race itself that's been disproved. So race isn't bullshit because it makes people queasy, it's bullshit because it's bullshit."

Let us refer to a "Darwinist" that Ghost himself refers to in that exact post:

"However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."

-Richard Dawkins, "The Ancestor's Tale"

But do these racial characteristics highly correlate? (Answer: Yes, they do)

[Rosenberg NA et al (2002) Genetic structure of human populations. Science 298:2381--2385]

"Analysis of multilocus genotypes of 1,056 individuals from 52 populations [which self-reported their race] did allow an inference of group structure and that five genetic clusters derived from that analysis of purely genetic similarities corresponded largely to major geographic regions [which also correspond to self-reported racial categories]."

[Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies (2004)]

"Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four "self-reported" race/ethnicity categories (genetic cluster membership and self-identified race coincided in as many as 99.9% of the cases)." Of 3,636 subjects (who self identified as White, African American, East Asian, or Hispanic), only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity."

Everyone recognizes that sex is a biological category. For purposes of comparison, the discordance rate between self-reported sex and markers on the X chromosome in the study was actually higher that the discordance rate between self-reported race and the genetic cluster membership.

Neil Risch (who also lead the first study I mentioned) and his team of geneticists found: ''The correspondence between genetic cluster and self-identified race/ethnicity is remarkably high... Accordingly, in this case, major self-identified race/ethnicity and genetic cluster are effectively synonymous'' (Tang et al. 2005, 271)

[Witherspoon DJ et al (2007) Genetic similarities within and between human populations. Genetics, 176:351--359]

A good measure of the robustness of racial genetic differentiation is: ''How often does it happen that a pair of individuals from one population is genetically more dissimilar than two individuals chosen from two different populations?'' In fact, if many thousands of loci are used as a basis for judging genetic similarity and when individuals are sampled from geographically separated populations, the correct answer, is: ''Never''

[Brues AM (1990) The once and future diagnosis of race. In: Gill GW, Rhine S (eds) Skeletal attributions of race. Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Albuquerque]

This study covered 17 populations over the world and that relied on 34 different measurements. It managed to assign 98% of the specimens to their correct major racial group.

[Ousley S et al (2009) Understanding race and human variation: why forensic anthropologists are good at identifying race. Am J Phys Anthropology 139:68--76]

This study had a success rate of 80% in distinguishing between American Whites and Blacks, although it used just two variables. With seven variables, however, it reached the reliability of 95%, and with 19 variables the probability of correct classification rose to 97%.

[Konigsberg LW et al (2009) Estimation and evidence in forensic anthropology: sex and race. Am J Phys Anthropology 139:77--90]

Also, estimating generally the reliability of attributing a given data point to one of the five racial categories, this team of experts calculated that under some realistic conditions it is sufficient to use as few as 13 characteristics to have the posterior probability of the correct classification attain the value of 99%.
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11-05-2013, 11:23 PM
RE: An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275602/

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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11-05-2013, 11:45 PM
RE: An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
(11-05-2013 11:23 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275602/

And I bet that you didn't take the time to read through that yourself to know that it appeals to Lewontin's Fallacy. R.C. Lewontin is a scientific fraud, whose political motivations has muddied the science of race in academia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genet...'s_Fallacy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12879450
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11-05-2013, 11:54 PM
RE: An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
(11-05-2013 11:45 PM)Spectral-Rothbardian Wrote:  
(11-05-2013 11:23 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275602/

And I bet that you didn't take the time to read through that yourself to know that it appeals to Lewontin's Fallacy. R.C. Lewontin is a scientific fraud, whose political motivations has muddied the science of race in academia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genet...'s_Fallacy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12879450

I looked at your links but apparently you did not offer the same courtesy. The link I offered was an in depth look at the application of "race" to genetic studies.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-05-2013, 12:00 AM
RE: An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
(11-05-2013 11:54 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-05-2013 11:45 PM)Spectral-Rothbardian Wrote:  And I bet that you didn't take the time to read through that yourself to know that it appeals to Lewontin's Fallacy. R.C. Lewontin is a scientific fraud, whose political motivations has muddied the science of race in academia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Genet...'s_Fallacy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12879450

I looked at your links but apparently you did not offer the same courtesy. The link I offered was an in depth look at the application of "race" to genetic studies.

An "in depth look" that is based on false premises (such as Lewontin's Fallacy).
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12-05-2013, 12:02 AM
RE: An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
(12-05-2013 12:00 AM)Spectral-Rothbardian Wrote:  
(11-05-2013 11:54 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I looked at your links but apparently you did not offer the same courtesy. The link I offered was an in depth look at the application of "race" to genetic studies.

An "in depth look" that is based on false premises (such as Lewontin's Fallacy).

Quote: Abstract
The global dispersal of anatomically modern humans over the past 100,000 years has produced patterns of phenotypic variation that have exerted—and continue to exert—powerful influences on the lives of individuals and the experiences of groups. The recency of our common ancestry and continued gene flow among populations have resulted in less genetic differentiation among geographically distributed human populations than is observed in many other mammalian species.

No doesn't seem to be based on that fallacy but thanks for bringing it up I will make sure to look for it in other works.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-05-2013, 12:12 AM
RE: An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
(12-05-2013 12:02 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-05-2013 12:00 AM)Spectral-Rothbardian Wrote:  An "in depth look" that is based on false premises (such as Lewontin's Fallacy).

Quote: Abstract
The global dispersal of anatomically modern humans over the past 100,000 years has produced patterns of phenotypic variation that have exerted—and continue to exert—powerful influences on the lives of individuals and the experiences of groups. The recency of our common ancestry and continued gene flow among populations have resulted in less genetic differentiation among geographically distributed human populations than is observed in many other mammalian species.

No doesn't seem to be based on that fallacy but thanks for bringing it up I will make sure to look for it in other works.

"In general, however, 5%–15% of genetic variation occurs between large groups living on different continents, with the remaining majority of the variation occurring within such groups (Lewontin 1972; Jorde et al. 2000a; Hinds et al. 2005). This distribution of genetic variation differs from the pattern seen in many other mammalian species, for which existing data suggest greater differentiation between groups...

I would suggest reading beyond the abstract when citing a study as your argument.
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12-05-2013, 12:19 AM
RE: An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
(11-05-2013 11:05 PM)Spectral-Rothbardian Wrote:  In my first thread, a poster by the title 'Ghost' had this to say:

"The so-called racial traits are absolutely the result of selection and genetic drift and any geneticist or Darwinist worth a damn will confirm that. It's race itself that's been disproved. So race isn't bullshit because it makes people queasy, it's bullshit because it's bullshit."

Let us refer to a "Darwinist" that Ghost himself refers to in that exact post:

"However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are highly correlate with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance."

-Richard Dawkins, "The Ancestor's Tale"

But do these racial characteristics highly correlate? (Answer: Yes, they do)

[Rosenberg NA et al (2002) Genetic structure of human populations. Science 298:2381--2385]

"Analysis of multilocus genotypes of 1,056 individuals from 52 populations [which self-reported their race] did allow an inference of group structure and that five genetic clusters derived from that analysis of purely genetic similarities corresponded largely to major geographic regions [which also correspond to self-reported racial categories]."

[Genetic Structure, Self-Identified Race/Ethnicity, and Confounding in Case-Control Association Studies (2004)]

"Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four "self-reported" race/ethnicity categories (genetic cluster membership and self-identified race coincided in as many as 99.9% of the cases)." Of 3,636 subjects (who self identified as White, African American, East Asian, or Hispanic), only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity."

Everyone recognizes that sex is a biological category. For purposes of comparison, the discordance rate between self-reported sex and markers on the X chromosome in the study was actually higher that the discordance rate between self-reported race and the genetic cluster membership.

Neil Risch (who also lead the first study I mentioned) and his team of geneticists found: ''The correspondence between genetic cluster and self-identified race/ethnicity is remarkably high... Accordingly, in this case, major self-identified race/ethnicity and genetic cluster are effectively synonymous'' (Tang et al. 2005, 271)

[Witherspoon DJ et al (2007) Genetic similarities within and between human populations. Genetics, 176:351--359]

A good measure of the robustness of racial genetic differentiation is: ''How often does it happen that a pair of individuals from one population is genetically more dissimilar than two individuals chosen from two different populations?'' In fact, if many thousands of loci are used as a basis for judging genetic similarity and when individuals are sampled from geographically separated populations, the correct answer, is: ''Never''

[Brues AM (1990) The once and future diagnosis of race. In: Gill GW, Rhine S (eds) Skeletal attributions of race. Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, Albuquerque]

This study covered 17 populations over the world and that relied on 34 different measurements. It managed to assign 98% of the specimens to their correct major racial group.

[Ousley S et al (2009) Understanding race and human variation: why forensic anthropologists are good at identifying race. Am J Phys Anthropology 139:68--76]

This study had a success rate of 80% in distinguishing between American Whites and Blacks, although it used just two variables. With seven variables, however, it reached the reliability of 95%, and with 19 variables the probability of correct classification rose to 97%.

[Konigsberg LW et al (2009) Estimation and evidence in forensic anthropology: sex and race. Am J Phys Anthropology 139:77--90]

Also, estimating generally the reliability of attributing a given data point to one of the five racial categories, this team of experts calculated that under some realistic conditions it is sufficient to use as few as 13 characteristics to have the posterior probability of the correct classification attain the value of 99%.

You do realize I'm not an egalitarian.

All people are different, they have differing abilities, and are able to things others cannot do.

However I want my government to treat everyone equally, to have equality before the law, and people in general to respect one another.

Also I reject social-constructivism as an epistemology, but do acknowledge that societal norms are the result of interactions between large groups of people.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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12-05-2013, 12:24 AM
RE: An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
(12-05-2013 12:19 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  However I want my government to treat everyone equally, to have equality before the law, and people in general to respect one another.

That sounds rather incoherent, but I'm sure it seems pleasing to your own ears.
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12-05-2013, 12:26 AM
RE: An egalitarian 'Ghost' vanquished by a greater spectre.
(12-05-2013 12:24 AM)Spectral-Rothbardian Wrote:  
(12-05-2013 12:19 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  However I want my government to treat everyone equally, to have equality before the law, and people in general to respect one another.

That sounds rather incoherent, but I'm sure it seems pleasing to your own ears.

How is that incoherent?

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
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