An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
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13-01-2016, 09:19 PM
An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
Certainly there have been greater thinkers than myself, so I'm sure others have thought of his before me. So if what I say here has already been said, feel free to let me know...

Anyway, to me there is a sort of mathematical proof that God (as commonly understood and proselytized) cannot possibly exist. It is based on sets and subsets.

First some obvious definitions.
Omnipotent = all powerful. Ben Carson says God can, today, produce a new planet that is already billions of years old. So for an all-powerful entity, there is absolutely nothing that is beyond its capabilities. If it can be imagined, and even if it can't, this God can do it.
Omniscient= all knowing. Omniscience is necessarily a required subset of omnipotence, because if you cannot know everything then clearly you are lacking some power!

Now then. If God knows everything, that means he knows the entire future. ALL of it, including his own thoughts in the future. Else he is not omniscient, right? He has to, by definition, already know right now everything that will ever occur. Including his own future thoughts.

With me so far?

Going back to omnipotence, God has to be able to do/accomplish anything. There are no limits, else he cannot be called all-powerful. Right?

So..... if God by definition already knows everything that will ever occur, including his own future thoughts, he becomes powerless to change his mind in the future! Hence He, lacking that power, is clearly not omnipotent.

Conversely.... If God is indeed capable of changing his mind about anything at any time, then clearly even He does not know exactly what will occur in the future. Which renders him non-omniscient.... and as omniscience is a required subset of omnipotence, makes him something less than all-powerful.

In short: omniscience is both required for, AND completely incompatible with, omnipotence. Thus omnipotence itself is mathematically impossible.

And finally, in a nod to Epicurus: if god is not omnipotent, is he really God?
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13-01-2016, 10:11 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(13-01-2016 09:19 PM)coyote Wrote:  Certainly there have been greater thinkers than myself, so I'm sure others have thought of his before me. So if what I say here has already been said, feel free to let me know...

Anyway, to me there is a sort of mathematical proof that God (as commonly understood and proselytized) cannot possibly exist. It is based on sets and subsets.

First some obvious definitions.
Omnipotent = all powerful. Ben Carson says God can, today, produce a new planet that is already billions of years old. So for an all-powerful entity, there is absolutely nothing that is beyond its capabilities. If it can be imagined, and even if it can't, this God can do it.
Omniscient= all knowing. Omniscience is necessarily a required subset of omnipotence, because if you cannot know everything then clearly you are lacking some power!

Now then. If God knows everything, that means he knows the entire future. ALL of it, including his own thoughts in the future. Else he is not omniscient, right? He has to, by definition, already know right now everything that will ever occur. Including his own future thoughts.

With me so far?

Going back to omnipotence, God has to be able to do/accomplish anything. There are no limits, else he cannot be called all-powerful. Right?

So..... if God by definition already knows everything that will ever occur, including his own future thoughts, he becomes powerless to change his mind in the future! Hence He, lacking that power, is clearly not omnipotent.

Conversely.... If God is indeed capable of changing his mind about anything at any time, then clearly even He does not know exactly what will occur in the future. Which renders him non-omniscient.... and as omniscience is a required subset of omnipotence, makes him something less than all-powerful.

In short: omniscience is both required for, AND completely incompatible with, omnipotence. Thus omnipotence itself is mathematically impossible.

And finally, in a nod to Epicurus: if god is not omnipotent, is he really God?

The only thing I find god equatable to is a fairytale.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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14-01-2016, 06:36 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
Concepts such as omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence and perfection only work in an imaginary context, they are impossible and self-contradictory in reality.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-01-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
I follow what you did but IMO applying logic or mathematical constructs to prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural being is flawed from the beginning. Our knowledge of logic and math is derived from our observations and analysis of the natural world. In order for natural logic/math to be applicable to the supernatural, first the supernatural must be proven to exist, then the laws governing it must be reviewed to see if our natural world logic applies there too.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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14-01-2016, 09:35 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(13-01-2016 09:19 PM)coyote Wrote:  So..... if God by definition already knows everything that will ever occur, including his own future thoughts, he becomes powerless to change his mind in the future! Hence He, lacking that power, is clearly not omnipotent.

No, he knows he will change his mind.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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14-01-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
Not to bad Coyote.

However these concepts of God having these abilities Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresence are all very new. A quick read of the bible will tell you why.

Most of the time when he shows up he's oblivious to whats going on around him. He's fixed to a spefic location, or someone is talking for him.

Obviously we would all agree more affluently that we would need to figure out what a god is before we can start saying what a god dose.

Other concepts that have been added threw the years have been he's all loving and incapable of lying. Another easy fix with a look at the character created in the bible. If the children are missbehaving do you

A. Cause great bodily harm to them. wait 3,000 years then tell them what they did wrong. B. Explain what they did was wrong, and why. C. Drown them. D. Lock them in the basement, and set it on fire.

This isn't a nurturing caring being, that's portrayed. It's a monster.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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14-01-2016, 10:32 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(14-01-2016 09:35 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(13-01-2016 09:19 PM)coyote Wrote:  So..... if God by definition already knows everything that will ever occur, including his own future thoughts, he becomes powerless to change his mind in the future! Hence He, lacking that power, is clearly not omnipotent.

No, he knows he will change his mind.

If god is omniscient, then he doesn't need to change his mind.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-01-2016, 10:53 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(14-01-2016 10:32 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 09:35 AM)theophilus Wrote:  No, he knows he will change his mind.

If god is omniscient, then he doesn't need to change his mind.

But, just read a few pages into the first book of the bible and we see God does change his mind. It is said that Adam and Eve will die if they eat of the forbidden fruit. They don't. I guess that would make God not omniscient???

----------------------------------

Speaking of reading the first few pages of the bible. A passage from a Christian forum:

I just began reading the Bible.

In Genesis 2, it says:

And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why did they, ultimately, not die? Instead, God punishes them in some other way.

genesis.

And the response:

If you've just started reading the Bible, may I suggest you begin with the New Testament (Matthew)? It contains less long lists / obscure prophecies that are best left until you have a clear understanding of the Gospel message. – Wikis Jan 9 '14 at 9:15 Laugh out load

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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14-01-2016, 11:12 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(14-01-2016 10:53 AM)mgoering Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 10:32 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  If god is omniscient, then he doesn't need to change his mind.

But, just read a few pages into the first book of the bible and we see God does change his mind. It is said that Adam and Eve will die if they eat of the forbidden fruit. They don't. I guess that would make God not omniscient???

----------------------------------

Speaking of reading the first few pages of the bible. A passage from a Christian forum:

I just began reading the Bible.

In Genesis 2, it says:

And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why did they, ultimately, not die? Instead, God punishes them in some other way.

genesis.

And the response:

If you've just started reading the Bible, may I suggest you begin with the New Testament (Matthew)? It contains less long lists / obscure prophecies that are best left until you have a clear understanding of the Gospel message. – Wikis Jan 9 '14 at 9:15 Laugh out load

Yeah, the OT is rife with instances of God asking where Adam is, who told them they were naked, etc.

The poor guy just doesn't know what's going on.

The Tower of Babel myth in Genesis 11 has him going down to investigate what they are building in Babel. Hmm, guess he's not omnipresent or omniscient according to that myth. Laugh out load

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-01-2016, 11:19 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
Another form of the GRP.

It simply can't exist.

By using one of the Os to limit another O, you're redefining what the O means.

Ex:

God's omnipotent and omniscient. But if He's omniscient then He can't be omnipotent because He's powerless to change His own future.

This is an interesting school of thought, but like any good paradox, it simply can't exist.

By limiting His omnipotence via omniscience you're redefining omnipotence to mean "almost all powerful". Therefore, the omnipotent label has to be removed.

The GRP has been used for years, and it's actually just a clever fallacy.

The real question should be how can a Christian believe in two paradoxical characteristics exist within one being.

There is no justification for it other than blind faith and/or the belief that we can't fully understand God.

So yeah, your conundrum that you presented (the GRP) cannot exist. It simply cannot be while retaining the actual definitions of omnipotence and omniscience.

It order to address this in the future, the question should be to the theist as to how they can believe this paradox exist in one being.

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