An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
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14-01-2016, 11:30 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(14-01-2016 09:35 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(13-01-2016 09:19 PM)coyote Wrote:  So..... if God by definition already knows everything that will ever occur, including his own future thoughts, he becomes powerless to change his mind in the future! Hence He, lacking that power, is clearly not omnipotent.

No, he knows he will change his mind.

The Western god is (by definition) a changeless/timeless being.
Take Theology 101 (for Dummies).
Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-01-2016, 11:36 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(14-01-2016 10:53 AM)mgoering Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 10:32 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  If god is omniscient, then he doesn't need to change his mind.

But, just read a few pages into the first book of the bible and we see God does change his mind. It is said that Adam and Eve will die if they eat of the forbidden fruit. They don't. I guess that would make God not omniscient???

----------------------------------

Speaking of reading the first few pages of the bible. A passage from a Christian forum:

I just began reading the Bible.

In Genesis 2, it says:

And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why did they, ultimately, not die? Instead, God punishes them in some other way.

Well, ultimately, they did die, and that was part of their punishment. It just didn't happen on that same day.

Quote:And the response:

If you've just started reading the Bible, may I suggest you begin with the New Testament (Matthew)? It contains less long lists / obscure prophecies that are best left until you have a clear understanding of the Gospel message. – Wikis Jan 9 '14 at 9:15 Laugh out load

I disagree with that advice. Jesus and his disciples were Jews, and the entire New Testament is steeped in Judaism. It also repeatedly refers to the Old Testament. I contend that you can't really understand the New Testament unless you're familiar with the Old Testament. And from a literary point of view, the Old Testament is simply better. There are lots of great stories in there.
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14-01-2016, 11:40 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(14-01-2016 11:36 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 10:53 AM)mgoering Wrote:  But, just read a few pages into the first book of the bible and we see God does change his mind. It is said that Adam and Eve will die if they eat of the forbidden fruit. They don't. I guess that would make God not omniscient???

----------------------------------

Speaking of reading the first few pages of the bible. A passage from a Christian forum:

I just began reading the Bible.

In Genesis 2, it says:

And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why did they, ultimately, not die? Instead, God punishes them in some other way.

Well, ultimately, they did die, and that was part of their punishment. It just didn't happen on that same day.

Quote:And the response:

If you've just started reading the Bible, may I suggest you begin with the New Testament (Matthew)? It contains less long lists / obscure prophecies that are best left until you have a clear understanding of the Gospel message. – Wikis Jan 9 '14 at 9:15 Laugh out load

I disagree with that advice. Jesus and his disciples were Jews, and the entire New Testament is steeped in Judaism. It also repeatedly refers to the Old Testament. I contend that you can't really understand the New Testament unless you're familiar with the Old Testament. And from a literary point of view, the Old Testament is simply better. There are lots of great stories in there.

Then they also had no evidence for certainty they would never die in the Garden. How long were they in there anyway to know for sure that death wasn't apart of it. People make that case of Eden being so perfect but the story reads like Eve was there a day or two then suddenly it's over.

This is really just the can god create a boulder even he can't lift. The problem is if you even want to go on and bicker about the classic Omni-three/four beliefs. They're ancient and flawed... and they were pointed out how they were flawed all the way back when people actually had them considered. I don't think there is much value to talking about them because not many people use those ideas anyway. If someone says they believe it sure, but they'll probably have some proclaimed "not actual" Omni version of what they think the idea is of Gods power. And they'll throw in the "gods nature" line.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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14-01-2016, 12:04 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
Whether Adam and Eve would have died anyway is somewhat ambiguous in the Biblical account. To me, it reads as if they would have, because the reason God gives for expelling them from the garden is so that they won't eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. This implies that they won't live forever unless they eat from that tree. On the other hand, that might only be because of their sin, and that's what Christian teaching generally claims.

It's all just a story anyway, so I'm not going to get too worked up about it.

Laugh out load
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14-01-2016, 02:15 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(14-01-2016 08:41 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  I follow what you did but IMO applying logic or mathematical constructs to prove or disprove the existence of a supernatural being is flawed from the beginning. Our knowledge of logic and math is derived from our observations and analysis of the natural world. In order for natural logic/math to be applicable to the supernatural, first the supernatural must be proven to exist, then the laws governing it must be reviewed to see if our natural world logic applies there too.

Your logic fails if someone believes in a non omnipotent God. You will need to describe God's attributes in order to put it through a logic base test.
An Omnipotent/Omiscient God can theoretically exist, just not the way popular religion describes God.

Regarding us not being able to understand God because of our "limited" knowledge is a very poor argument. Here is why:
The words you use to describe something is the way you communicate with others.
1+1=2
1+1= a sum
1+1=3
The first one requires basic knowledge
The second one requires higher knowledge
The 3rd one is illogical.

What religious people attempt to do is say something like "3 really means 2 in another language".
So when someone says God is a merciful God even when sending people to hell for eternity, the word "merciful" does not carry the same meaning in their mind as others.
Changing the meaning of a word to win an argument is just starting a new argument without telling your opponent that he is arguing a different topic.
Consider this:
What is your interpretation of a merciful being?
A merciful being is expected to show mercy to all. (my understanding)
A merciful being is one merciful to those he loves. (another's understanding)
If we cannot agree on the meaning of the words "merciful being" then we cannot have a proper discussion due to a language barrier.
This isn't a matter of differences of opinion, it's simply a language issue which can be easily overcome.
Here is where the deceit lies:
When people convince other persons to sway their belief they play on their emotions.
When you say "God sacrificed his Son" you change the common meaning of the word sacrifice to play on my emotions. If I knew he really didn't sacrifice his Son, since the being known as Jesus still exists I may not have converted as the act doesn't hold as much meaning to me now.
When you say "God is merciful being" you change the common meaning of the word merciful to "sometimes merciful based on certain conditions". If I knew he really isn't all that merciful in the end maybe I may not have converted.

Debates between Theists & Atheists are plagued with these communication barriers & leaves all debates incomplete. If we are to have proper debates we need to be consistent with meaning of words.

Regards,

Shane
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14-01-2016, 02:51 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(13-01-2016 09:19 PM)coyote Wrote:  Certainly there have been greater thinkers than myself, so I'm sure others have thought of his before me. So if what I say here has already been said, feel free to let me know...

Anyway, to me there is a sort of mathematical proof that God (as commonly understood and proselytized) cannot possibly exist. It is based on sets and subsets.

First some obvious definitions.
Omnipotent = all powerful. Ben Carson says God can, today, produce a new planet that is already billions of years old. So for an all-powerful entity, there is absolutely nothing that is beyond its capabilities. If it can be imagined, and even if it can't, this God can do it.
Omniscient= all knowing. Omniscience is necessarily a required subset of omnipotence, because if you cannot know everything then clearly you are lacking some power!

Now then. If God knows everything, that means he knows the entire future. ALL of it, including his own thoughts in the future. Else he is not omniscient, right? He has to, by definition, already know right now everything that will ever occur. Including his own future thoughts.

With me so far?

Going back to omnipotence, God has to be able to do/accomplish anything. There are no limits, else he cannot be called all-powerful. Right?

So..... if God by definition already knows everything that will ever occur, including his own future thoughts, he becomes powerless to change his mind in the future! Hence He, lacking that power, is clearly not omnipotent.

Conversely.... If God is indeed capable of changing his mind about anything at any time, then clearly even He does not know exactly what will occur in the future. Which renders him non-omniscient.... and as omniscience is a required subset of omnipotence, makes him something less than all-powerful.

In short: omniscience is both required for, AND completely incompatible with, omnipotence. Thus omnipotence itself is mathematically impossible.

And finally, in a nod to Epicurus: if god is not omnipotent, is he really God?
God is without change.

Also, you act as if God had thoughts like humans, limiting something that is without limit.

Sorry.

Peace
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14-01-2016, 02:54 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(14-01-2016 10:53 AM)mgoering Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 10:32 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  If god is omniscient, then he doesn't need to change his mind.

But, just read a few pages into the first book of the bible and we see God does change his mind. It is said that Adam and Eve will die if they eat of the forbidden fruit. They don't. I guess that would make God not omniscient???

----------------------------------

Speaking of reading the first few pages of the bible. A passage from a Christian forum:

I just began reading the Bible.

In Genesis 2, it says:

And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why did they, ultimately, not die? Instead, God punishes them in some other way.

genesis.

And the response:

If you've just started reading the Bible, may I suggest you begin with the New Testament (Matthew)? It contains less long lists / obscure prophecies that are best left until you have a clear understanding of the Gospel message. – Wikis Jan 9 '14 at 9:15 Laugh out load
They died.
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14-01-2016, 03:06 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
First some obvious definitions.
Omnipotent = all powerful. Ben Carson says God can, today, produce a new planet that is already billions of years old. So for an all-powerful entity, there is absolutely nothing that is beyond its capabilities. If it can be imagined, and even if it can't, this God can do it.
Omniscient= all knowing. Omniscience is necessarily a required subset of omnipotence, because if you cannot know everything then clearly you are lacking some power!


I grew up in Ben Carson's church and we kids used to ask each other "Do you suppose God can make a rock so soloid He cannot crack it?"
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14-01-2016, 03:08 PM
An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
You lost me there...
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14-01-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(14-01-2016 02:51 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  God is without change.

Also, you act as if God had thoughts like humans, limiting something that is without limit.

Why do you continue to make claims that you can't support?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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