An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
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16-01-2016, 05:53 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(15-01-2016 05:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-01-2016 05:12 PM)coyote Wrote:  There is only one known universe. Yet you insist that a sample size for characteristics of a universe must be more than one.

And you certainly do leap to adhoms on almost no basis! Indeed, I can see where logic and you would be approximately 94% incompatible Smile

These is only one known universe, 94 % of which is at this point unknown. That is hardly sufficient to draw any conclusions from. I insist that at least 50 % of this universe is known, and at that point it may not even be good enough. I happened to notice you STILL have not addressed my question above. I "leapt" to ad homs, not from this, but from your woo crap about energy conversion and whatever else that woo BS was in the other thread. But that's ok. I get that more than real answers, you need cognitive closure, and have a very low ambiguity tolerance. Your "logic" blankey will keep you warm.

Your precious "questions above" are immaterial to this particular conversation; they are a deflection, and consequently won't be answered. Open a thread about that topic, and perhaps I will discuss it. Until then, your insistence on drawing conclusions from my not answering - and you then instantly and repeatedly segueing into juvenile name calling - has created in my mind an awful first impression of you. Makes me wonder if the religious folk out there aren't right about atheists sometimes....
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16-01-2016, 07:28 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2016 07:31 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(15-01-2016 09:53 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 05:21 PM)popsthebuilder Wrote:  Do you really think the passage of time now is the same as it was in the beginning or immediately after the theoretical big bang?

Well pops as expected, like a ballerina with Down Syndrome you attempt to dance around.

Us as humans judge the passage of time as threw days, months, years. So a day to us is 24 hours. The time it takes for the earth to make a full rotation. Even with out modern time keeping the concept of a time is not out of grasp. How many moons pass, seasons.

Had the story been true. The only way that this could play out is if God told someone this was happened. No one was around when he was doing all this. And Adam wasn't made until day six. God would have sat someone down and told someone.

So here is what happens when YOU change the description of the story.

1. You make your God sound like a moron. Incapable of describing even in simplest terms to his creation. In a manor that can not be miss interpreted.

2. You show just what has happen threw out the years with this tale. Miner changes to attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. "Oh did we say day we meant year." "Oh no not year Eons." It religion trying to stay relievent. Changing the evidence so that the result matches to assertion.

3. The original tale was meant to demonstrate god great ability. He can make universes and planets with eas. Now your saying it took billions of years? Give me a 100 billion years I think I could pull off the same shit.

Now to answer your question. Since I'm not a dick that avoids those.

Time is bendy wobble stuff. Able to be adjusted by gravity, and speed. Time as we know it, is compared to our earths rotation. I don't know the conditions that would have been, after the earliest expansion. Even if I did. It would be illrelavent to the topic at hand.

The topic is why a book that is held as devinly inspired. is incapable to explain in a clear and coherent manner. One that doesn't have to be altered to fit modern discovery's.

If this is what you have to do to keep this bullshit story alive then fuck why stop there.

And so God told Noah, I'm going to flood the earth with Kool-aid.

And Jesus said "Blessed are the Cheese Makers."
May I interject here?
Please don't find me rude but I believe there may be a slight error in your logic.
If I am wrong please correct me as well.

If a day means one full rotation of the earth on it's axis (24 Earth Hours). Then "earth days" could not have existed when the universe was created since the earth did not exist as yet. Thus the universe could never have been created in any amount of "earth days", let alone 6.

The actual notion of "earth days" existing at the beginning of the universe is not logical.

For the sake of argument:
Suppose I am an outside observer at the beginning of the universe and I am attempting to convince you how long it took to create the universe up until our present conversation.
How could I explain properly how long it took to create the present universe if I needed to use a unit of time that isn't explained by use of astronomy?

I would need to describe time as something that isn't an event/process in astronomy. How can I describe time without using time in the description. That would be a logical fallacy, circular argument.

Have you read about Time Dilation? Science unanimously agrees that time DOES NOT pass the same in all frames of reference.

From a physics stand point:
Time is simply based on the perspective of the observer & depending on what speed that observer is going it changes. This is why a time dilated object ages differently to others.

What this means is time is a matter of perspective. Therefore if a physicist spends 1 light hour to do something, he does not spend the same amount of time as 1 earth hour.

Therefore you can only calibrate time based on the perspective of who is observing.

Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation for further clarification.

So now for my questions:

Question:
Can the present universe be created in 6 days?

Answer:
It depends on the perspective of something that existed when the universe was started & is still in existence today.

Did you know from the perspective of a beam of light the universe has only been in existence for less than 1 second? In fact it was created in 0 seconds.
google it:
http://www.chongonation.com/articles/old..._speed.htm

I'm not a Theist but it is scientifically possible that the universe can be created in 6 days dependent on who/what is telling the story.
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16-01-2016, 07:46 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
I'll go you one further: from the frame of reference of an "outside observer" to the creation of the Universe, it would be impossible to discern any expansion at all. What exactly is it expanding into? An endless void? How does the outside observer develop any hint of perspective on that?
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16-01-2016, 07:54 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 07:46 AM)coyote Wrote:  I'll go you one further: from the frame of reference of an "outside observer" to the creation of the Universe, it would be impossible to discern any expansion at all. What exactly is it expanding into? An endless void? How does the outside observer develop any hint of perspective on that?

The outside observer theory was only for the sake of argument at the beginning of my post as I do not believe in God as an absolute truth although I do not rule out the possibility that such a being may exist.
However a beam of light isn't an outside observer. It is part of the universe that we exist in.
This may sound silly but if a Photon could speak it would probably say "I saw it happen a lot faster than 6 days".
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16-01-2016, 07:54 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 07:28 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  For the sake of argument:
Suppose I am an outside observer at the beginning of the universe and I am attempting to convince you how long it took to create the universe up until our present conversation.
How could I explain properly how long it took to create the present universe if I needed to use a unit of time that isn't explained by use of astronomy?

You could say that it took a very long time. Saying "the evening and the morning were the first day" is guaranteed to obscure your meaning if you are talking about millions or billions of years. It would be a pretty stupid omniscience that didn't know it was inspiring confusion.

Quote:Have you read about Time Dilation? Science unanimously agrees that time DOES NOT pass the same in all frames of reference.

From a physics stand point:
Time is simply based on the perspective of the observer & depending on what speed that observer is going it changes. This is why a time dilated object ages differently to others.

But the time experienced by each of the objects is the same; it is only when something in one frame observes another that it appears to be different. Within each frame the experience is the same. Relativity doesn't give you more time in which to do things.

Quote:What this means is time is a matter of perspective. Therefore if a physicist spends 1 light hour to do something, he does not spend the same amount of time as 1 earth hour.

To him it is one hour. If he is traveling near the speed of light then to an earthbound observer it would seem like much longer but to the physicist it is still 1 hour.

Quote:Question:
Can the present universe be created in 6 days?

Answer:
It depends on the perspective of something that existed when the universe was started & is still in existence today.

You are applying relativity as it works within our universe to something that is not part of our universe so the argument is pure speculation.

Quote:I'm not a Theist but it is scientifically possible that the universe can be created in 6 days dependent on who/what is telling the story.

Within our universe the god would having to be moving much slower than what he was creating in order for 1 of his days to seem like millions of years. External to the universe (if that even makes sense) we do not know what rules apply. Either way I don't see that it is a valid argument.

The simplest solution is that genesis was written by a bronze age culture and is nothing but one creation myth out of thousands. Trying to find scientific justification for it is a fool's errand.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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16-01-2016, 09:00 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 07:28 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(15-01-2016 09:53 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Well pops as expected, like a ballerina with Down Syndrome you attempt to dance around.

Us as humans judge the passage of time as threw days, months, years. So a day to us is 24 hours. The time it takes for the earth to make a full rotation. Even with out modern time keeping the concept of a time is not out of grasp. How many moons pass, seasons.

Had the story been true. The only way that this could play out is if God told someone this was happened. No one was around when he was doing all this. And Adam wasn't made until day six. God would have sat someone down and told someone.

So here is what happens when YOU change the description of the story.

1. You make your God sound like a moron. Incapable of describing even in simplest terms to his creation. In a manor that can not be miss interpreted.

2. You show just what has happen threw out the years with this tale. Miner changes to attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. "Oh did we say day we meant year." "Oh no not year Eons." It religion trying to stay relievent. Changing the evidence so that the result matches to assertion.

3. The original tale was meant to demonstrate god great ability. He can make universes and planets with eas. Now your saying it took billions of years? Give me a 100 billion years I think I could pull off the same shit.

Now to answer your question. Since I'm not a dick that avoids those.

Time is bendy wobble stuff. Able to be adjusted by gravity, and speed. Time as we know it, is compared to our earths rotation. I don't know the conditions that would have been, after the earliest expansion. Even if I did. It would be illrelavent to the topic at hand.

The topic is why a book that is held as devinly inspired. is incapable to explain in a clear and coherent manner. One that doesn't have to be altered to fit modern discovery's.

If this is what you have to do to keep this bullshit story alive then fuck why stop there.

And so God told Noah, I'm going to flood the earth with Kool-aid.

And Jesus said "Blessed are the Cheese Makers."
May I interject here?
Please don't find me rude but I believe there may be a slight error in your logic.
If I am wrong please correct me as well.

If a day means one full rotation of the earth on it's axis (24 Earth Hours). Then "earth days" could not have existed when the universe was created since the earth did not exist as yet. Thus the universe could never have been created in any amount of "earth days", let alone 6.

The actual notion of "earth days" existing at the beginning of the universe is not logical.

For the sake of argument:
Suppose I am an outside observer at the beginning of the universe and I am attempting to convince you how long it took to create the universe up until our present conversation.
How could I explain properly how long it took to create the present universe if I needed to use a unit of time that isn't explained by use of astronomy?

I would need to describe time as something that isn't an event/process in astronomy. How can I describe time without using time in the description. That would be a logical fallacy, circular argument.

Have you read about Time Dilation? Science unanimously agrees that time DOES NOT pass the same in all frames of reference.

From a physics stand point:
Time is simply based on the perspective of the observer & depending on what speed that observer is going it changes. This is why a time dilated object ages differently to others.

What this means is time is a matter of perspective. Therefore if a physicist spends 1 light hour to do something, he does not spend the same amount of time as 1 earth hour.

Therefore you can only calibrate time based on the perspective of who is observing.

Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation for further clarification.

So now for my questions:

Question:
Can the present universe be created in 6 days?

Answer:
It depends on the perspective of something that existed when the universe was started & is still in existence today.

Did you know from the perspective of a beam of light the universe has only been in existence for less than 1 second? In fact it was created in 0 seconds.
google it:
http://www.chongonation.com/articles/old..._speed.htm

I'm not a Theist but it is scientifically possible that the universe can be created in 6 days dependent on who/what is telling the story.

You're overthinking this, there was a creation week, so this coincides with the concept of a Sumerian-derived week. They even based one of god's commandments off of a Sumerian-derived week. (The Sabbath)

You can create any interpretation you want from obscure, vague scriptures, but I note that meaning has to be read INTO scriptures, but it doesn't come OUT OF such passages. It's a one-way street of knowledge transfer.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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16-01-2016, 09:02 AM (This post was last modified: 16-01-2016 09:11 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 07:54 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
Quote:
(16-01-2016 07:28 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  For the sake of argument:
Suppose I am an outside observer at the beginning of the universe and I am attempting to convince you how long it took to create the universe up until our present conversation.
How could I explain properly how long it took to create the present universe if I needed to use a unit of time that isn't explained by use of astronomy?

You could say that it took a very long time. Saying "the evening and the morning were the first day" is guaranteed to obscure your meaning if you are talking about millions or billions of years. It would be a pretty stupid omniscience that didn't know it was inspiring confusion.
How is this relevant to what I am speaking about?
I am only speaking about the possibility that it could be created in 6 days.
This "evening & morning" thing isn't logical and I would have to side with you on that for obvious reasons.

Quote:
Quote:Have you read about Time Dilation? Science unanimously agrees that time DOES NOT pass the same in all frames of reference.

From a physics stand point:
Time is simply based on the perspective of the observer & depending on what speed that observer is going it changes. This is why a time dilated object ages differently to others.

But the time experienced by each of the objects is the same; it is only when something in one frame observes another that it appears to be different. Within each frame the experience is the same. Relativity doesn't give you more time in which to do things.
This is not detracting from what I said.
If I saw something take 6 days to build, why would I tell you I saw it takes 14 billion years to build? This would be a lie since I only saw it take 6 days to build.
Or do you want me to say "you saw it take 14 billion years to build"? Which would be a lie since you never saw it in the first place.
Or do you want me to say "if you were in my shoes you will see it takes 14 billion years to build"? This would be another lie since time will pass the same way it did for me (6 days).
There is no other way to explain how time passes for me other than through my perspective.

Quote:
Quote:What this means is time is a matter of perspective. Therefore if a physicist spends 1 light hour to do something, he does not spend the same amount of time as 1 earth hour.

To him it is one hour. If he is traveling near the speed of light then to an earthbound observer it would seem like much longer but to the physicist it is still 1 hour.
But he does travel a longer distance in 1 hour from his perspective. In 1 hour from the observer's perspective he will barely have moved at all.
They will both be arguing about how far he traveled in 1 hour. Both answers will be correct based on perspective.
The same argument is taking place between Atheists & Theist over the age of the Universe.

Quote:
Quote:Question:
Can the present universe be created in 6 days?

Answer:
It depends on the perspective of something that existed when the universe was started & is still in existence today.

You are applying relativity as it works within our universe to something that is not part of our universe so the argument is pure speculation.
I inadvertently responded to this in my last post but I will re-quote for you:
"The outside observer theory was only for the sake of argument at the beginning of my post as I do not believe in God as an absolute truth although I do not rule out the possibility that such a being may exist.
However a beam of light isn't an outside observer. It is part of the universe that we exist in.
This may sound silly but if a Photon could speak it would probably say "I saw it happen a lot faster than 6 days"."

Quote:
Quote:I'm not a Theist but it is scientifically possible that the universe can be created in 6 days dependent on who/what is telling the story.

Within our universe the god would having to be moving much slower than what he was creating in order for 1 of his days to seem like millions of years. External to the universe (if that even makes sense) we do not know what rules apply. Either way I don't see that it is a valid argument.
Please read above.
I am talking about the perspective of a Photon for all intents & purposes. Although you are welcomed to use God interchangeably, I would rather not since I have no evidence of his existence or speed.
Regarding moving slower to create, once again I am speaking about "observing creation" & not "creating creation".
To light, everything is moving slow, in fact if you read the science article I posted time does not even exist from the perspective of a Photon. You can't get much slower than that right?

Quote:The simplest solution is that genesis was written by a bronze age culture and is nothing but one creation myth out of thousands. Trying to find scientific justification for it is a fool's errand.
The simplest solution is not necessarily the only solution or the best one.
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16-01-2016, 09:17 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 09:00 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(16-01-2016 07:28 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  May I interject here?
Please don't find me rude but I believe there may be a slight error in your logic.
If I am wrong please correct me as well.

If a day means one full rotation of the earth on it's axis (24 Earth Hours). Then "earth days" could not have existed when the universe was created since the earth did not exist as yet. Thus the universe could never have been created in any amount of "earth days", let alone 6.

The actual notion of "earth days" existing at the beginning of the universe is not logical.

For the sake of argument:
Suppose I am an outside observer at the beginning of the universe and I am attempting to convince you how long it took to create the universe up until our present conversation.
How could I explain properly how long it took to create the present universe if I needed to use a unit of time that isn't explained by use of astronomy?

I would need to describe time as something that isn't an event/process in astronomy. How can I describe time without using time in the description. That would be a logical fallacy, circular argument.

Have you read about Time Dilation? Science unanimously agrees that time DOES NOT pass the same in all frames of reference.

From a physics stand point:
Time is simply based on the perspective of the observer & depending on what speed that observer is going it changes. This is why a time dilated object ages differently to others.

What this means is time is a matter of perspective. Therefore if a physicist spends 1 light hour to do something, he does not spend the same amount of time as 1 earth hour.

Therefore you can only calibrate time based on the perspective of who is observing.

Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation for further clarification.

So now for my questions:

Question:
Can the present universe be created in 6 days?

Answer:
It depends on the perspective of something that existed when the universe was started & is still in existence today.

Did you know from the perspective of a beam of light the universe has only been in existence for less than 1 second? In fact it was created in 0 seconds.
google it:
http://www.chongonation.com/articles/old..._speed.htm

I'm not a Theist but it is scientifically possible that the universe can be created in 6 days dependent on who/what is telling the story.

You're overthinking this, there was a creation week, so this coincides with the concept of a Sumerian-derived week. They even based one of god's commandments off of a Sumerian-derived week. (The Sabbath)

You can create any interpretation you want from obscure, vague scriptures, but I note that meaning has to be read INTO scriptures, but it doesn't come OUT OF such passages. It's a one-way street of knowledge transfer.

I'm only discussing the possibility of something as big as the universe being created in 6 days.
Sabbaths, Calendars & Religious Dogma aren't relevant to the point I am making, nor do I wish to defend these concepts.
I am not a Theist.
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16-01-2016, 09:41 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
Dunno why you guys are hashing out what time might have meant to God at the beginning of this world, when at the beginning of this thread we proved the God described by the bible cannot exist Smile
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16-01-2016, 10:15 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
double post deleted

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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