An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
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16-01-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 09:02 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  How is this relevant to what I am speaking about?
I am only speaking about the possibility that it could be created in 6 days.
This "evening & morning" thing isn't logical and I would have to side with you on that for obvious reasons.

It is relevant because it shows that the author was thinking of 6 24-hour earth days. There's no reason to try to find some other interpretation that might possibly make sense under some circumstances.

Quote:This is not detracting from what I said.
If I saw something take 6 days to build, why would I tell you I saw it takes 14 billion years to build? This would be a lie since I only saw it take 6 days to build.
Or do you want me to say "you saw it take 14 billion years to build"? Which would be a lie since you never saw it in the first place.

To see 14 billion years pass in 6 days you'd have to be watching from a frame of reference where time was moving incredibly slow compared to the universe. That doesn't make sense for the god story. It is also undermined by the fact that the observer saw only 6 mornings and evenings. I know you want to ignore that but it makes this all pointless.

Quote:This may sound silly but if a Photon could speak it would probably say "I saw it happen a lot faster than 6 days"."

To a photon there is no time. Even to a Photon there is no time.

Quote:I am talking about the perspective of a Photon for all intents & purposes. Although you are welcomed to use God interchangeably, I would rather not since I have no evidence of his existence or speed.

So you are just engaging in philosophical masturbation? If so, I'll leave you some privacy as I find it to be an incredible waste of time.

Quote:The simplest solution is not necessarily the only solution or the best one.

Unless there is evidence that it doesn't explain there is no need to search for a better solution.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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16-01-2016, 12:19 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(15-01-2016 03:12 PM)coyote Wrote:  
(15-01-2016 09:53 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Time is bendy wobble stuff. Able to be adjusted by gravity, and speed. Time as we know it, is compared to our earths rotation. I don't know the conditions that would have been, after the earliest expansion. Even if I did. It would be illrelavent to the topic at hand.

Blessed are the Cheese Makers."

Time is an illusion. Yes we can measure its passage, by whatever criteria we wish. Yes we can remember the past, and consider the future. Yes we know (yes we do) that absent some unforeseen solar-system wide catastrophe, the sun will "come up" tomorrow, whether we ourselves are alive to witness it or not.

Yes, it might be perceived and experienced differently depending on a variety of factors.

Nonetheless, time is an illusion. The past no longer exists, and the future does not yet exist. There is only the ever-present NOW that you are experiencing. Right now. And now. And now....

An image of the past exists. If you were on a planet at Alpha Centauri right now, if you could see detail enough through your telescope you might see Samantha Stosur beating Serena Williams for the U.S. Open title. And if you could detect the TV signal, you might watch it on your own Centaurian flat screen.

But that is not the event. That is a long-ago image, and energy-wave transmission of the image, of the event. The image is no more the event than a map of Florida is actually Florida. The image captured just recently of the brightest supernova we've ever seen? That image comes from a faraway Galaxy, and none can ever hope to travel there-then to experience it.

Imaginations of possible futures exist, likely as many different futures as there have been conscious life forms capable of imagining them.

But those are not the future.

I know I differ from some very smart people on this. Please, if you respond do not do so with mere recourse to authority; "Einstein said so, so there" is not valid discourse.

Sorry Coyote, time is not an illustion. In fact in your attempt to disprove it you proved it.

Since your afraid of my responce. I'll let a smart man then both of us explain.




Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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16-01-2016, 12:48 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 07:28 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(15-01-2016 09:53 AM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Well pops as expected, like a ballerina with Down Syndrome you attempt to dance around.

Us as humans judge the passage of time as threw days, months, years. So a day to us is 24 hours. The time it takes for the earth to make a full rotation. Even with out modern time keeping the concept of a time is not out of grasp. How many moons pass, seasons.

Had the story been true. The only way that this could play out is if God told someone this was happened. No one was around when he was doing all this. And Adam wasn't made until day six. God would have sat someone down and told someone.

So here is what happens when YOU change the description of the story.

1. You make your God sound like a moron. Incapable of describing even in simplest terms to his creation. In a manor that can not be miss interpreted.

2. You show just what has happen threw out the years with this tale. Miner changes to attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. "Oh did we say day we meant year." "Oh no not year Eons." It religion trying to stay relievent. Changing the evidence so that the result matches to assertion.

3. The original tale was meant to demonstrate god great ability. He can make universes and planets with eas. Now your saying it took billions of years? Give me a 100 billion years I think I could pull off the same shit.

Now to answer your question. Since I'm not a dick that avoids those.

Time is bendy wobble stuff. Able to be adjusted by gravity, and speed. Time as we know it, is compared to our earths rotation. I don't know the conditions that would have been, after the earliest expansion. Even if I did. It would be illrelavent to the topic at hand.

The topic is why a book that is held as devinly inspired. is incapable to explain in a clear and coherent manner. One that doesn't have to be altered to fit modern discovery's.

If this is what you have to do to keep this bullshit story alive then fuck why stop there.

And so God told Noah, I'm going to flood the earth with Kool-aid.

And Jesus said "Blessed are the Cheese Makers."
May I interject here?
Please don't find me rude but I believe there may be a slight error in your logic.
If I am wrong please correct me as well.

If a day means one full rotation of the earth on it's axis (24 Earth Hours). Then "earth days" could not have existed when the universe was created since the earth did not exist as yet. Thus the universe could never have been created in any amount of "earth days", let alone 6.

The actual notion of "earth days" existing at the beginning of the universe is not logical.

For the sake of argument:
Suppose I am an outside observer at the beginning of the universe and I am attempting to convince you how long it took to create the universe up until our present conversation.
How could I explain properly how long it took to create the present universe if I needed to use a unit of time that isn't explained by use of astronomy?

I would need to describe time as something that isn't an event/process in astronomy. How can I describe time without using time in the description. That would be a logical fallacy, circular argument.

Have you read about Time Dilation? Science unanimously agrees that time DOES NOT pass the same in all frames of reference.

From a physics stand point:
Time is simply based on the perspective of the observer & depending on what speed that observer is going it changes. This is why a time dilated object ages differently to others.

What this means is time is a matter of perspective. Therefore if a physicist spends 1 light hour to do something, he does not spend the same amount of time as 1 earth hour.

Therefore you can only calibrate time based on the perspective of who is observing.

Please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation for further clarification.

So now for my questions:

Question:
Can the present universe be created in 6 days?

Answer:
It depends on the perspective of something that existed when the universe was started & is still in existence today.

Did you know from the perspective of a beam of light the universe has only been in existence for less than 1 second? In fact it was created in 0 seconds.
google it:
http://www.chongonation.com/articles/old..._speed.htm

I'm not a Theist but it is scientifically possible that the universe can be created in 6 days dependent on who/what is telling the story.

What it breaks down to in my explanation is the whole thing is an illogical mess. As in my description it apologetic s. They are altering the events that have been written down so that that can stay relevant.

When people defend God. They always go to "Well Gods super-duper smart so you'll never understand because your super-duper dumb." Also when pushed they would often say the book was written by God.

If this out side observer was super-duper smart. Beyond our level on comprehension. He would be able to describe the events that happened without a shred of falsehood or misunderstanding. If in his perceived time the passage of that time was one second. He could discribe that even as one second. If it took eons he would describe it as eons.

If the god existed in a place that was void of time he would be unable to exist outside that point.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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16-01-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
To the Theists:

Assuming that God is mysterious & works in mysterious ways is true. Why would it be ok for him to communicate in mysterious ways too? Is there a passage from your religious scriptures that states that God "communicates" in mysterious ways? How did you come to understand that he communicates in mysterious ways (assuming this is what you believe?)

Communicate: to impart or transmit (information or knowledge) to someone

Of course I am assuming here he is communicating for the purpose of being understood. If not then...
Why would God possibly communicate something to us that he doesn't want us to understand?
If he did & we understood it would that mean we defied God?
If he did it so only a few could get the meaning, then why is it our fault if we get classed with the other section?
If he does communicate properly and we just don't understand it because of our own ignorance then why would you consider this as "God communicating mysteriously?", because he obviously didn't do that.

The fact is, if you believe in a God that is communicating with you, then the premise:
"God works in mysterious ways"
Does not follow the conclusion that
"God communicates in mysterious ways"

In other words
When I ask a question like "What does God mean by this?"
You cannot respond
"I don't know because God works in mysterious ways"

His mysterious ways has nothing to do with the way he communicates.
I'm not even going to bother to say "he is God, & therefore could find a better way to communicate in the first place"

It's just a completely invalid argument. It is being intellectually dishonest every time you say this.

So please stop for the sake of honesty at least

Please note: Mysterious doesn't mean unusual, it means unexplainable & incomprehensible.

Now, I'm going to tackle the issue of "God Works in mysterious ways"
Firstly, if you are going to make such a statement about God clearly it must have backing in your religious book. So tell me where did you read this in your religious book.
Secondly, assuming that you did actually find the words "God works in mysterious ways", what would you take that to mean? God's works shall always be "unexplainable & incomprehensible" in the past, present & future even by him? Or is it just at that point in time?
If it's always "unexplainable & incomprehensible" then how were you ever able to understand it to begin with. Did you defy God's law?
If it's temporarily "unexplainable & incomprehensible" then why use it as an argument to explain "how you could understand it but I can't". Obviously if you understood it the temporarily "unexplainable & incomprehensible" moment has passed. Are you suggesting that you once understood it but can't anymore? If you suddenly developed mental retardation then you cannot make the claim that your brain is still functioning the way it should be.
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16-01-2016, 01:52 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 09:41 AM)coyote Wrote:  Dunno why you guys are hashing out what time might have meant to God at the beginning of this world, when at the beginning of this thread we proved the God described by the bible cannot exist Smile

Really, the god of the bible is not at all described as omnipotent or omniscient. Nowhere is that the case though I suppose some random Psalms may be loosely poetic enough that one can interpret them that way. It's why generic claims of god attribute discussing goes mostly nowhere.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-01-2016, 03:09 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 12:19 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Sorry Coyote, time is not an illustion. In fact in your attempt to disprove it you proved it.

Since your afraid of my responce. I'll let a smart man then both of us explain

I'm not afraid of your response, though I find myself fearing your next misspelled word lol Gotta say, it's a nasty group I'm finding here. Y'all immediately leap to adhominems, as if you seem to imagine that hurling the first insult is how to win an argument.

Anyway, Tyson says we are stuck in the transition between past and future. That transition is NOW. We can only ever be in a place NOW. Yes we can track where we've been and when, but while we can revisit those places we cannot revisit that time. And if the future already exists, then we'd better start looking for the God that created it.

And then let's examine what Tyson really says at the beginning: time depends on repeatability. Our day is only what it is because every X arbitrary units, our planet rotates such that we again face our star head-on. Our year likewise only exists because of the duration of our planet's orbit around that star, and the number of rotations within that duration is our unit of measure.

So then. If time depends on repeatability, what of the 'time' immediately after the Big Bang?? Like any explosion, there was stuff flying in all directions from the event point - but there was as of yet nothing repeating. As there was nothing repeating, was there no time??

I await your next adhominem reply
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16-01-2016, 03:16 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 01:52 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Really, the god of the bible is not at all described as omnipotent or omniscient. Nowhere is that the case though I suppose some random Psalms may be loosely poetic enough that one can interpret them that way. It's why generic claims of god attribute discussing goes mostly nowhere.

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Luke 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.

Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?


And again I ask: if God is not capable of ___________, is he really God?
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19-01-2016, 04:44 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 03:09 PM)coyote Wrote:  I'm not afraid of your response, though I find myself fearing your next misspelled word lol Gotta say, it's a nasty group I'm finding here. Y'all immediately leap to adhominems, as if you seem to imagine that hurling the first insult is how to win an argument.

* Ad hominem

I'm already aware of my disability to so spell words properly. So becoming a Grammar Nazi wont help ether of us. It will only be a waist of your time.

(16-01-2016 03:09 PM)coyote Wrote:  Anyway, Tyson says we are stuck in the transition between past and future. That transition is NOW. We can only ever be in a place NOW. Yes we can track where we've been and when, but while we can revisit those places we cannot revisit that time. And if the future already exists, then we'd better start looking for the God that created it.

And then let's examine what Tyson really says at the beginning: time depends on repeatability. Our day is only what it is because every X arbitrary units, our planet rotates such that we again face our star head-on. Our year likewise only exists because of the duration of our planet's orbit around that star, and the number of rotations within that duration is our unit of measure.


I will say this about you Coyote. You've got some fire. And it appears you've put some time into thinking about this subject.

I'm not sure how I became your target of opposition.

Here is my best understanding on the subject.

Space and Time are the same thing. Spacetime. A single 4 dimensional tapestry of exsitance.

When we travel in Space we can find rates in Time change. Depending on a lot of different factors. Rate of speed, gravity. (Relativity)

That being said. It is true are fixed to the present. But it is possible for a object to move fast enough that time would not move at the same rate for it. If we said it was a person and the person moved at a fast enough pace for them let's say 10 years would pass and on earth time would move for 100 years. That person would have successfully traveled in time. The two presents not connecting. Moving in the wobble soup of time. The same would go If one was to aproch a black hole (and some how not become spaghettifed) for your time from an outside observer would come to a stop. But for your time would move at a rapid rate. Two presents moving at different times.

Should I accept your hypothesis. And say Time dose not exist. A lot of problems arise. At least for my understanding. My writing this for example would not be able to progress past the letter let alone pressing the button to engage in the reaction that would enviable create that letter would not be able to proceed.

Einsteins early theory of relativity couldn't work without the Spacetime. Once he factored Spacetime in his Theory came full circle.

Quote: And if the future already exists, then we'd better start looking for the God that created it.

Why would you think a God is required for anything?

Quote:So then. If time depends on repeatability, what of the 'time' immediately after the Big Bang??

The arrow of time is for us; the only way we will ever live. But in the eye of physics backwards and forwards is the same.

As I pretty sure I said before I do not have adequate knowledge of the events that followed the big bang. Just basic understandings that I've gathered over the years.

Quote:Like any explosion, there was stuff flying in all directions from the event point - but there was as of yet nothing repeating. As there was nothing repeating, was there no time??

The Big Bang is a misleading name. It's more of an great expansion.

I don't know things aren't repeating. All I have is this universe to examine. Their could be repeated accurances happening in something bigger then our universe. There could be universe's popping up all the time.

And as I said a little while ago In the eyes of physics backwards and forwards is the same. Maybe at some point the universe collapses in on itself, or we can continue to expand till all the star in the sky fade into nothingness. I don't know. And I will never know.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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19-01-2016, 08:59 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
(16-01-2016 03:16 PM)coyote Wrote:  
(16-01-2016 01:52 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Really, the god of the bible is not at all described as omnipotent or omniscient. Nowhere is that the case though I suppose some random Psalms may be loosely poetic enough that one can interpret them that way. It's why generic claims of god attribute discussing goes mostly nowhere.

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Luke 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.

Jeremiah 32:27 Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?


And again I ask: if God is not capable of ___________, is he really God?
And again I ask: if God is not capable of knowing what created God, is he really God?
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19-01-2016, 09:08 PM
RE: An equation (of sorts) that proves God cannot exist
Sensei, you are not my 'target'. You are merely a stream of words on a message board. Your silly penchant for adhominems aside, I have no issue with you in particular.

So then. Why would a future that already exists need a god to create it??
On a planetary scale, perhaps it doesn't. The sun will either fade out in the future (likely) or go supernova (highly unlikely). Human activity cannot affect those things.
But life makes choices. Choices determine futures, choices life makes NOW. question: Was your previous post pre-scripted? By what?

A naturally occurring universe, given the alternative, makes sense. But a naturally occurring universe in which I have no choice but to type this question? Because it has been pre-scripted, like a Shakespearian play? Given certain realities (among them entropy and chaos theory), that is a level of matter/energy organization that does NOT make sense.... unless there is sentience involved. I will argue today against vilifying Hitler if he had no choice in the matter. He was then, as he often claimed, fulfilling his destiny.
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