An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
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22-04-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
(21-04-2014 10:49 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
Quote:The Sacrament of Matrimony

Marriage was not instituted by Man, but by God. (Sent. certa.) D 2225.
Marriage is a true and proper Sacrament instituted by God. (De fide.)
The primary purpose of Marriage is the generation and bringing-up of offspring. The secondary purpose is mutual help and the morally regulated satisfaction of the sex urge. (Sent. certa.) CIC 1013, Par. 1.
The essential properties of Marriage are unity (monogamy) and indissolubility. (Sent. certa.) CIC 1013, Par. 2.
Every valid contract of Marriage between Christians is of itself a sacrament. (Sent. certa.)
From the sacramental contract of marriage emerges the Bond of Marriage, which binds both marriage partners to a lifelong indivisible community of life. (De fide.)
The Sacrament of Matrimony bestows Sanctifying Grace on the contracting parties. (De fide.)
The contracting parties in Matrimony minister the Sacrament each to the other. (Sent. certa.)
The Church possesses the sole and exclusive right to make laws and administer justice in the matrimonial affairs of baptised persons, in so far as these affect the Sacrament. (Sent. certa.) Cf. CIC 1016, 1960.

So, either gay couples are good to go, or infertile couples are not allowed to marry

The "seven sacraments" were not defined as such until Trent, as I recall. Marriage was not defined as a sacrament until very late in RCC history. Of course they cooked up all sorts of language to say it was a "continuation" ... but the church of "Scripture and Tradition" changes it's traditions like most people do their undies.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2014, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2014 10:56 AM by Impulse.)
RE: An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
5. Our natural knowledge of God in this world is not as immediate, intuitive cognition, but a mediate, abstractive knowledge, because it is attained through the knowledge of creatures. (Sent. certa.)

5. There is no natural knowledge of God, but because some people don't understand how creatures can exist or many other things, they make God up from abstract nonsense and call it "intuitive cognition".

Edit:
A couple more:

16. There is only One God. (De fide.)
16. There is only one God - the father, son, and holy spirit. And 1 + 1 = 6.

412. The time of Jesus' second coming is unknown to men. (Sent. certa.)
412. The time of Jesus' second coming is unknown to men. But women know the exact date. Men carrying "end times are near" signs are liars.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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22-04-2014, 11:32 AM
RE: An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
(21-04-2014 10:49 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
Quote:The Sacrament of Matrimony

Marriage was not instituted by Man, but by God. (Sent. certa.) D 2225.
Marriage is a true and proper Sacrament instituted by God. (De fide.)
The primary purpose of Marriage is the generation and bringing-up of offspring. The secondary purpose is mutual help and the morally regulated satisfaction of the sex urge. (Sent. certa.) CIC 1013, Par. 1.
The essential properties of Marriage are unity (monogamy) and indissolubility. (Sent. certa.) CIC 1013, Par. 2.
Every valid contract of Marriage between Christians is of itself a sacrament. (Sent. certa.)
From the sacramental contract of marriage emerges the Bond of Marriage, which binds both marriage partners to a lifelong indivisible community of life. (De fide.)
The Sacrament of Matrimony bestows Sanctifying Grace on the contracting parties. (De fide.)
The contracting parties in Matrimony minister the Sacrament each to the other. (Sent. certa.)
The Church possesses the sole and exclusive right to make laws and administer justice in the matrimonial affairs of baptised persons, in so far as these affect the Sacrament. (Sent. certa.) Cf. CIC 1016, 1960.

So, either gay couples are good to go, or infertile couples are not allowed to marry

Although infertile couples are allowed to get married impotent couples are not allowed. So you still have to be able to have sex to get married. With the infertile couples thing, I've always referred to it as the Abraham clause. If god can give them a child, why not someone else.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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22-04-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
(22-04-2014 11:32 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(21-04-2014 10:49 PM)nach_in Wrote:  So, either gay couples are good to go, or infertile couples are not allowed to marry

Although infertile couples are allowed to get married impotent couples are not allowed. So you still have to be able to have sex to get married. With the infertile couples thing, I've always referred to it as the Abraham clause. If god can give them a child, why not someone else.

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Some times I doubt about having left the RCC, then I realize they're crazy crazy and get glad instead

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22-04-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
(22-04-2014 11:32 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(21-04-2014 10:49 PM)nach_in Wrote:  So, either gay couples are good to go, or infertile couples are not allowed to marry

Although infertile couples are allowed to get married impotent couples are not allowed. So you still have to be able to have sex to get married. With the infertile couples thing, I've always referred to it as the Abraham clause. If god can give them a child, why not someone else.

Complete bunk. There is no RCC in the entire world that "test" couples for fertility or "impotence" before marriage, or even asks the question. "Impotence" is curable in 2014.

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22-04-2014, 11:55 AM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2014 12:29 PM by Impulse.)
RE: An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
(22-04-2014 11:32 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Although infertile couples are allowed to get married impotent couples are not allowed. So you still have to be able to have sex to get married.
Just plain incorrect.

(22-04-2014 11:32 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  With the infertile couples thing, I've always referred to it as the Abraham clause. If god can give them a child, why not someone else.
I don't understand your meaning. Can you please clarify?


Edit:
Nevermind, I just realized your "can" should be "can't" so you're saying if God can't give them a child, someone else can give them a child.

Well, here's the thing. My wife and I were unable to have children of our own and adopted. Now, on the one hand, I'm glad this happened because I now wouldn't trade my kids for any others. BUT, what my wife and I went through trying to have kids - the emotional anguish, the countless doctors visits, the expenses, the years that passed - absolutely sucked. That was followed by the adoption process - more years passed, more emotional anguish (processing documents, dealing with agency mistakes that we had to straighten out, waiting and more waiting), and much more expense and financial hardship. If I hadn't already been an atheist at that time, I would have been by the end of it. To me, your view holds that god said "be fruitful and multiply" and then took away our means to do so. Dodgy

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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22-04-2014, 12:37 PM
RE: An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
(22-04-2014 11:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 11:32 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Although infertile couples are allowed to get married impotent couples are not allowed. So you still have to be able to have sex to get married. With the infertile couples thing, I've always referred to it as the Abraham clause. If god can give them a child, why not someone else.

Complete bunk. There is no RCC in the entire world that "test" couples for fertility or "impotence" before marriage, or even asks the question. "Impotence" is curable in 2014.

I never said they checked and it is possible that they ask nowadays especially with marriage prep becoming more and more common. But it is correct and if a man was impotent prior to the marriage then it could be considered grounds for annulment. Also the impotence has to be permanent. So if you only need Viagra then you wouldn't be considered impotent. But if, say, a nerve was severed then that could be considered an impediment.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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22-04-2014, 12:48 PM
RE: An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
(22-04-2014 11:55 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 11:32 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Although infertile couples are allowed to get married impotent couples are not allowed. So you still have to be able to have sex to get married.
Just plain incorrect.

(22-04-2014 11:32 AM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  With the infertile couples thing, I've always referred to it as the Abraham clause. If god can give them a child, why not someone else.
I don't understand your meaning. Can you please clarify?


Edit:
Nevermind, I just realized your "can" should be "can't" so you're saying if God can't give them a child, someone else can give them a child.

Well, here's the thing. My wife and I were unable to have children of our own and adopted. Now, on the one hand, I'm glad this happened because I now wouldn't trade my kids for any others. BUT, what my wife and I went through trying to have kids - the emotional anguish, the countless doctors visits, the expenses, the years that passed - absolutely sucked. That was followed by the adoption process - more years passed, more emotional anguish (processing documents, dealing with agency mistakes that we had to straighten out, waiting and more waiting), and much more expense and financial hardship. If I hadn't already been an atheist at that time, I would have been by the end of it. To me, your view holds that god said "be fruitful and multiply" and then took away our means to do so. Dodgy

No you were right the first time. Expanding the sentence would read; if god could give Abraham a child after 70 odd years of sterility, then he could do it for some other infertile couple. In any case ignore that cause its wrong. It was just something I used way back when I was a less educated catholic whenever this topic was brought up. I still can't give you a good answer at the moment as to the theology and philosophy behind permitting infertile couples to marry, although I do know were to find the answer, all I know is that that is not really it.

Also in response to your first point. It is correct. Canon law 1084 states that permanently impotent couples are not allowed to marry.

P.s. respect for adopting kids. Love them well.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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22-04-2014, 01:02 PM
RE: An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
(22-04-2014 12:37 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 11:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Complete bunk. There is no RCC in the entire world that "test" couples for fertility or "impotence" before marriage, or even asks the question. "Impotence" is curable in 2014.

I never said they checked and it is possible that they ask nowadays especially with marriage prep becoming more and more common. But it is correct and if a man was impotent prior to the marriage then it could be considered grounds for annulment. Also the impotence has to be permanent. So if you only need Viagra then you wouldn't be considered impotent. But if, say, a nerve was severed then that could be considered an impediment.

Nope. There are treatments for that. I don't expect you to know Urology, but, seriously, you have stats for these things ? Any "impotence" in 2014 can be treated or "gotten around". You're talking out your ass. Tongue You REALLY think a Lord of 600 sextillion stars would give a shit about one mammal's reproductive habits on one backwater star system ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2014, 01:02 PM
RE: An intellectual discussion on the RCC or Ripping Catholic dogmas a new one
(22-04-2014 12:48 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  Also in response to your first point. It is correct. Canon law 1084 states that permanently impotent couples are not allowed to marry.

So, your imaginary idiot gawd punishes couples who can't reproduce for its own failure to make them fertile. That's fucking stupid. You are a fucking idiot for buying into this bullshit.

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