Anarchists
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10-02-2011, 01:00 AM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2011 02:24 AM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: Anarchists
Anarchism is pretty tribal. It's also why governments were created in the first place, because people are inherently "dickish" in nature. The concept of helping each other and doing things for the community is great on paper, but unrealistic given the "dickitude" of human nature. Personally, I took the anarchist stance not because I hoped to see it established, but rather because it was the extreme anti-government stance. If we had actually started drifting towards an anarchist regime, I would have changed my stance further down the pro-government spectrum to compensate.

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10-02-2011, 02:16 AM
RE: Anarchists
I understand that you are not as much contra democracy, more pro anarchy.

This is interesting. When I look at history, or even today's world, I see civilisations only become more stable and prosperous once they have a decent government. You only have to look at the Congo or other African country's to see that. I would love to live in a world where freedom would be absolute but most people don't handle freedom to well. Also, I feel that, in a anarchistic organised society, there is a major advantage for the most assertive/aggressive members. The weaker members, or persons who have something to lose (Let's make this clear. I am biased.) will eventually flock together and end up in some kind of feudal system. Anarchy would only work if everyone would be equal which we aren't. some of us are dumber, smarter, younger, quicker etc, etc.

I think that society ended up as it is now because all the other forms of living together didn't work out. I see government as an "obligate evil"

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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10-02-2011, 05:18 AM
RE: Anarchists
I think hierarchy and morality are natural parts of ANY social species.Just look at wolves , lions etc.
Government = hierarchy , laws = morality -> I am referring to these concepts in a pseudo conceptual state but it's easy to see why society creates artificial constructs to ensure stability.The "Alpha male" government makes the rules or "pseudo-morality" so to speak.

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10-02-2011, 06:41 AM
RE: Anarchists
I still don't fully get the idea of anarchism and maybe partly because of that I still don't think it would work or result in welfare. I'd still like a lecture about it.

I doubt you wanna hear my wet dream of a society model (includes high taxes and an equal voting system).Tongue

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10-02-2011, 10:22 AM
RE: Anarchists
(10-02-2011 06:41 AM)Kikko Wrote:  I'd still like a lecture about it.
me too.

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10-02-2011, 10:50 AM
RE: Anarchists
(10-02-2011 12:53 AM)Kthulu Wrote:  Yes, people behave poorly. However, I don't think such stupidities are natural to people. I think those "dickish" tendencies are as a result of an instinctual reaction to being ruled, or confined somehow by their environment and those who presume to curate their environment.

I just don't see how any objective reading of history can lead to that conclusion.

Historical and anthropological evidence teaches us that humanoids (meaning even before homo sapiens became the dominant and then the only humanoid on Earth) were tribal. We competed for food, for resources for mates, etc. And, based on the evidence, we did not compete by thumb wrestling or having foot races. We killed each other off to the best of our ability. Being violent is almost a survival instinct for us. And, so, it seems, is greed.

You don't need any deep reading of history to see that human's screw each other at every opportunity. The idea that we would treat each other better if only their were no governmental constraints on our actions is just absurd. It's instinctive. It's who we are, to some extent.

I have no disagreement with the argument that governments have FAR exceeded their mandates, but the idea that we don't need some point of focus to organize and set general policies or protect people from the worst amongst us is, I think, completely at odds with history and human nature.

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10-02-2011, 02:09 PM
RE: Anarchists
(10-02-2011 10:50 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(10-02-2011 12:53 AM)Kthulu Wrote:  Yes, people behave poorly. However, I don't think such stupidities are natural to people. I think those "dickish" tendencies are as a result of an instinctual reaction to being ruled, or confined somehow by their environment and those who presume to curate their environment.

I just don't see how any objective reading of history can lead to that conclusion.

Historical and anthropological evidence teaches us that humanoids (meaning even before homo sapiens became the dominant and then the only humanoid on Earth) were tribal. We competed for food, for resources for mates, etc. And, based on the evidence, we did not compete by thumb wrestling or having foot races. We killed each other off to the best of our ability. Being violent is almost a survival instinct for us. And, so, it seems, is greed.

You don't need any deep reading of history to see that human's screw each other at every opportunity. The idea that we would treat each other better if only their were no governmental constraints on our actions is just absurd. It's instinctive. It's who we are, to some extent.

I have no disagreement with the argument that governments have FAR exceeded their mandates, but the idea that we don't need some point of focus to organize and set general policies or protect people from the worst amongst us is, I think, completely at odds with history and human nature.
I forget the source for this (possibly Cell by Stephen King), but I heard it put this way (mostly paraphrased): Humanity does not rule this planet due to technology, ingenuity, a big brain, or any of those other relatively peaceful ideas. We are at the top of the food chain because we are the most murderous motherf@#$ers to ever step foot on this planet.

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10-02-2011, 03:02 PM
RE: Anarchists
Murder = win ... why do I have trouble saying that ?
It's true, I know it but still , kinda hard to think of my own species that way.
What does it mean to be human , we speak so often of "humanitarian" aid - is that an oxymoron ?

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10-02-2011, 03:13 PM
RE: Anarchists
(10-02-2011 03:02 PM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  Murder = win ... why do I have trouble saying that ?
It's true, I know it but still , kinda hard to think of my own species that way.
What does it mean to be human , we speak so often of "humanitarian" aid - is that an oxymoron ?
It's not an easy truth to swallow. I for one would love to see a friendlier human race. One where we don't attempt to destroy each other over ideological differences. One where we take a little responsibility for this ball of dirt and water we call home. I do what I can. Maybe one day, decades or centuries from now, the general populace will be more intelligent and peaceful. Until then, we have our work cut out for us.

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10-02-2011, 10:24 PM
RE: Anarchists
I considered myself to be an anarchist when I was in high school, but I've grown out of that mentality as I've learned more about the world and human nature. Take a sociology class or look at world indexes. Those countries that have a higher level of government control (i.e. these European countries that you're making fun of Tongue) are better off in a number of ways. Less crime, higher education, more health benefits, etc, etc.

Now, I am not advocating fascism, but to me, less government control = more problems. Privatisation is not a good thing. When I first learned about privatised prisons in the U.S., I was speechless. Utterly shocked. That's the reaction that I get from every other Canadian I've talked to about it. We cannot imagine living in a country where most things are out of the government's control. Privatised health care?! That's just unthinkable!

I'd gladly pay taxes to ensure that I can see a doctor for a check-up, have a fire-fighter save my property, have police help me in an emergency, have a military for national emergencies (they were out in Manitoba helping during those floods), have the roads cleared of snow to prevent accidents, have bridges built, have a standard educational curriculum, etc. etc. In exchange, I get the right to vote, and the right to protest against my government if they get out of line.

-Okay, socialist rant over Tongue

"Remember, my friend, that knowledge is stronger than memory, and we should not trust the weaker." - Dr. Van Helsing, Dracula
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