Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
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20-03-2017, 02:24 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 01:59 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 06:09 AM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  You are speaking figuratively, not literally, using metaphor rather than fact. Marxism is not a religion. It is a science based on the theory of "Historical Materialism". It focuses on the control of resources and means of production in human society. It does not offer any belief in a God(s), which is central to religion.
Ooh... I had many a long heated argument with a particular Christian apologist on just that point. He insisted that Marxism was a religion.

To the argument that Marxism has no "God", he would counter that there are godless religions -- Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto, etc. I pointed out that all religions -- theist and godless alike -- shared one characteristic that Marxism lacked: an element of mysticism. All religions are focused far more on an alleged "next life" than they are on the here and now.

He never did come up with a good response to that.
Here's some extra ammo for you: Buddhist-->"Great Brahma", Taoist--->"The Great Mother of All Things"(that CREATED the Tao), Shintoists--->pagan "nature spirits". No God(s), no religion.
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20-03-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 02:23 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(20-03-2017 02:20 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  But the fascists DO want as little regulation as possible:
Libertarian/Mises/Rand school.

Objectivism, as much as I dislike Rand's ideas, isn't fascism. Libertarianism isn't fascism either. Both are basically egotistical approaches of every man for himself.

Fascist regimes were regulating heavily. They didn't outright forbid capitalism, but it had to play by their rules.
Fascists ARE capitalists with an autocrat(in the gov't) on top, with the least amount of reg., so as to have the most "free markets". Libertarians advocate least reg CAPITALiSM for more "free markets. Ergo, Libertarianism is essentially fascism, perhaps w/o the autocrat. "Il fascismo e il corporativismo"(Mussolini). An-Caps are NOT anarchists, is the main point here. Thats about all I will say about it.
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20-03-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(19-03-2017 06:55 AM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  So, "anarchism", by logical extension, is antagonistic to God/clergy/religion.
I have to disagree with you there, Fred. That can be true for some anarchists, but it is certainly not true for all anarchists. There are probably as many flavors of anarchy as there are anarchists, and there can be significant differences between, for example, an anarcho-socialist, and an anarcho-capitalist.

When it comes to religion, some anarchists do reject the concept, per se, but others believe that religious belief is a matter of personal choice, and are fine with the concept of a non-hierarchical egalitarian religion.

My atheism and my anarchy arose from separate causes, over many years, and it's only recently that I've traced, perhaps, some tenuous links between them. Neither, certainly, was the direct cause of, nor a necessary prerequisite for the other.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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20-03-2017, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2017 02:57 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 01:59 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Ooh... I had many a long heated argument with a particular Christian apologist on just that point. He insisted that Marxism was a religion.

And as much as I don't want to agree with christian apologists this one was partly right. Marxism-leninism was religion.

Quote:To the argument that Marxism has no "God", he would counter that there are godless religions -- Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto, etc. I pointed out that all religions -- theist and godless alike -- shared one characteristic that Marxism lacked: an element of mysticism. All religions are focused far more on an alleged "next life" than they are on the here and now.

He never did come up with a good response to that.

All religions are focused on next life? That's quite a claim when allegedly there is about 4300 of them.

According to Rafał Imos author of Faith of the Soviet Man. The Soviet's Institutionalized Myth marxism-leninism (communism) is gnostic, permeated with dualism, universalistic, founded (revealed*) religion focused on fight. Sadly it is not translated and highly technical language make mockery of any attempt of mine to translate.

Similar thoughts can be found in Raymond Aron The Opium of the Intellectuals though he seems to jump between calling m-l religion, political religion, or poor man substitute. I (again) will use quote from Opium [p. 267, of English 1962 edition]... to show general flavor of author thought:

The Marxist prophetism, as we have seen, conforms to the typical pattern of the Judeo-Christian prophetism. Every prophetism condemns what is and sketches an outline of what should or will be; it chooses an individual or a group to cleave a path across the no-man’s land which separates the unworthy present from the radiant future. The classless society which will bring social progress without political revolution is comparable to the dreams of the millennium. The misery of the proletariat proves its vocation and the Communist Party becomes the Church which is opposed by the bourgeois/pagans who stop their ears against the good tidings and by the socialist/Jews who have failed to recognise the Revolution which they themselves had been heralding for years.


Here is article on the subject of m-l being secular religion - http://www.academia.edu/14470645/Marxism...r_Religion

ETA: If someone is interested I found a book in English dealing with the subject - Marxism-Leninism As the Civil Religion of Soviet Society: God's Commissar by James Thrower. It's far from cheap though and I have no idea what's inside.

*Polish wikipedia deems two words synonymous though I'm not sure if that was the case.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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20-03-2017, 02:50 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 02:33 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(19-03-2017 06:55 AM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  So, "anarchism", by logical extension, is antagonistic to God/clergy/religion.
I have to disagree with you there, Fred. That can be true for some anarchists, but it is certainly not true for all anarchists. There are probably as many flavors of anarchy as there are anarchists, and there can be significant differences between, for example, an anarcho-socialist, and an anarcho-capitalist.

When it comes to religion, some anarchists do reject the concept, per se, but others believe that religious belief is a matter of personal choice, and are fine with the concept of a non-hierarchical egalitarian religion.

My atheism and my anarchy arose from separate causes, over many years, and it's only recently that I've traced, perhaps, some tenuous links between them. Neither, certainly, was the direct cause of, nor a necessary prerequisite for the other.
In post #135, I explained the LOGICAL fallacy of the term, "anarcho-capitalist". "Anarcho socialist" would more properly be labeled "Anarcho-communist", but that gets a bit redundant. To me, it's like "agnostics" v "atheists". The atheists are serious, have a commitment. Similarly, the communists are serious, have a commitment. But that's not to say that there isn't a necessary stage of socialism between capitalism and communism.

The anarchists can never seem to get enough numbers to get on the same page with a pointed policy program, which is necessary if you want to accomplish anything--especially on a grand scale.

If words DO mean something, which they hopefully should, "anarchism" and God(a ruler), ergo religion, are antithetic. Ergo, a self proclaimed anarchist cannot be a believer in God(s) at the same time. Simple logic.

Too much mishy mushy "thinking" goin' 'round.
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20-03-2017, 02:56 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Doc

What do you think about spokes council model anarchism?

It doesn't sit well with me and I identify as anarchist.

I'm atheist because theism is stupid. Cyclical or whatever I don't believe because I don't believe. I always thought it was stupid to believe in God even when I was a little kid.

Anarchism, for me, is what all my political beliefs boil down to no matter what the issue. The main thing I like about Fred's politics is he hates capitalism. So do I.

I don't need a leader and I don't want to be a leader. I don't need to be governed and I behave like a person who doesn't need to be governed. At this point, I think anarchists should be focused on personal responsibility. Thoreau, Tolstoy.

There's no chance anyway. Humanity is doomed. But if there was going to be a future I'd take my peaceful anarchist vision over anything else I've though of.
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20-03-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Quote:.If words DO mean something, which they hopefully should, "anarchism" and God(a ruler), ergo religion, are antithetic. Ergo, a self proclaimed anarchist cannot be a believer in God(s) at the same time. Simple logic.

I think that's called the no gray area fallacy or something like that.
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20-03-2017, 03:05 PM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2017 03:09 PM by Fred Hampton.)
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 03:02 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:.If words DO mean something, which they hopefully should, "anarchism" and God(a ruler), ergo religion, are antithetic. Ergo, a self proclaimed anarchist cannot be a believer in God(s) at the same time. Simple logic.

I think that's called the no gray area fallacy or something like that.
"An(w/o)-archy*", "no-archy". God IS "archy".

*Rule-r
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20-03-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(19-03-2017 07:17 AM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  Therefore, capitalist States, like the USA, have heavy, systematic anti Marxist/socialist/communist/anarchist propaganda, in order to protect the capitalist State. Similarly, Marxist socialist/communist States, like the USSR or Maoist China, or Castro's Cuba or the DPRK, have anti capitalist/class propaganda in order to protect their political socioeconomic order.
Marxist states haven't been any easier on anarchists than have capitalist states. The operative word here is "state". Anarchists don't believe that there should be a state, and are therefore viewed as a threat to any state, regardless of its economic ideology.

Anarchists in the Gulag

Cuban Anarchism: The History of A Movement -- Chapter 5: Exile and Shadows (1961–2001)

Anarchists played an important part in the Chinese revolution, but by 1961 they were fleeing for their lives into exile.
The Chinese Anarchist Movement -- The Anarchist Conflict with Marxism

The Shanghai Commune and the rightist reaction -- Part IV: The suppression of the Left in China

Suppression of anarchists in China continues to this day.
China: Anarchist Chen Xi sentenced to 10 years in prison for “inciting subversion”

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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20-03-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 03:05 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  
(20-03-2017 03:02 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I think that's called the no gray area fallacy or something like that.
"An(w/o)-archy*", "no-archy". God IS an "archy".

*Rule-r

Wow you're rigid.
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