Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
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22-02-2017, 09:23 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
I enjoyed your thoughtful post, H.
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23-02-2017, 08:25 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Thank you, Fred.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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18-03-2017, 04:10 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2017 04:27 AM by Fred Hampton.)
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(21-01-2017 06:45 PM)momo666 Wrote:  Were they the result of anti-religious sentiment ? I have heard this claim recently and I want to know what is your take on it.

What about the two world wars ? Wasn't the killer who "started" the first world war an atheist ?
Socialism/Communism is a science based on Marx's/Engel's theory of "Historical Materialism" which essentially means that we live in a material world, humans are material beings that need material resources for survival and reproduction of the species and therefore engage in various means of production upon said resources and enter into arbitrary material relations thereof--and human history proceeds on this basis.

Marx was raised Jewish but became an atheist. But he never advocated any State legislated stance against religions or beliefs in God and there never have been any socialist/communist States that have legislated and enforced atheism.

Various religions are practiced in all socialist/communist States and said States have never gone to war for any religious purposes. They go to war to either defend or initiate the socialist/communist revolution, which is an ongoing struggle in a capitalist dominated world.

(P.S., I am an atheist and ideologically Marxist Socialist/Communist--Mao Zedong being one of my main "heroes" in this regard, second only to Karl Marx.)
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18-03-2017, 04:29 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(18-03-2017 04:10 AM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  
(21-01-2017 06:45 PM)momo666 Wrote:  Were they the result of anti-religious sentiment ? I have heard this claim recently and I want to know what is your take on it.

What about the two world wars ? Wasn't the killer who "started" the first world war an atheist ?
Socialism/Communism is a science based on Marx's/Engel's theory of "Historical Materialism" which essentially means that we live in a material world, humans are material beings that need material resources for survival and reproduction of the species and therefore engage in various means of production upon said resources and enter into arbitrary material relations thereof--and human history proceeds on this basis.

Marx was raised Jewish but became an atheist. But he never advocated any State legislated stance against religions or beliefs in God and there never have been any socialist/communist States that have legislated and enforced atheism.

Various religions are practiced in all socialist/communist States and said States have never gone to war for any religious purposes. The go to war to either defend or initiate the socialist/communist revolution, which is an ongoing struggle in a capitalist dominated world.

Not 100% accurate. Stalin did massively curtail the power and influence of the Russian Orthodox church at first, but he was motivated by political rather than ideological gain; the Orthodoxy had sided with the Czars and the rest of the establishment power structures against the revolutionaries. Once Stalin was firmly in power and the Orthodoxy was ready to play ball and support the Communists, he reversed course and funneled resources into rebuilding the church. The Soviets are still remembered mostly as being atheistic in the United States, due to McCarthyism scare tactics. The first decade of the Cold War saw the addition of 'in god we trust' onto the currency, and the line 'under god' inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance. It was a easy way to rally the rabble against 'godless' dissidents in the United States, in effect becoming unwitting proxies of those who benefited from maintaining the status quo.

If that last part seems eerily familiar, it should. History does indeed appear to be repeating itself.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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18-03-2017, 04:35 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(21-01-2017 06:58 PM)ImFred Wrote:  Some historians call the Black Hand an anarchist organization. I identify as an anarchist and I'm definitely an atheist. From my experience anarchists are far more likely to be atheists than atheists are likely to be anarchists. I'm not sure if there are a higher percent of anarchists among atheists. I don't know any other anarchists in real life.
Hey Fred,
I am an atheist and Marxist Socialist/Communist with a healthy respect for anarchists. Communism and anarchism are quite related. My experience debating with atheist USers and Western Euros is that they are almost all dedicated capitalists and, just like believer capitalists, they vehemently attack Socialists/Communists with the typical anti-commie propaganda they have been brainwashed with, despite their so-called "rationalism". The human brain is easily compartmentalized and can be rational in some areas and irrational in others.
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18-03-2017, 04:51 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Alright!

Us Freds need to stick together.
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18-03-2017, 04:53 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2017 04:58 AM by Fred Hampton.)
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(18-03-2017 04:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-03-2017 04:10 AM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  Socialism/Communism is a science based on Marx's/Engel's theory of "Historical Materialism" which essentially means that we live in a material world, humans are material beings that need material resources for survival and reproduction of the species and therefore engage in various means of production upon said resources and enter into arbitrary material relations thereof--and human history proceeds on this basis.

Marx was raised Jewish but became an atheist. But he never advocated any State legislated stance against religions or beliefs in God and there never have been any socialist/communist States that have legislated and enforced atheism.

Various religions are practiced in all socialist/communist States and said States have never gone to war for any religious purposes. The go to war to either defend or initiate the socialist/communist revolution, which is an ongoing struggle in a capitalist dominated world.

Not 100% accurate. Stalin did massively curtail the power and influence of the Russian Orthodox church at first, but he was motivated by political rather than ideological gain; the Orthodoxy had sided with the Czars and the rest of the establishment power structures against the revolutionaries. Once Stalin was firmly in power and the Orthodoxy was ready to play ball and support the Communists, he reversed course and funneled resources into rebuilding the church. The Soviets are still remembered mostly as being atheistic in the United States, due to McCarthyism scare tactics. The first decade of the Cold War saw the addition of 'in god we trust' onto the currency, and the line 'under god' inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance. It was a easy way to rally the rabble against 'godless' dissidents in the United States, in effect becoming unwitting proxies of those who benefited from maintaining the status quo.

If that last part seems eerily familiar, it should. History does indeed appear to be repeating itself.
All correct, thanks for the addition. Lenin also, in large part, was following the will of the Bolshevik proletarian peasants v The Russian Orthodox Church that had oppressed them for centuries beside the Czars, as you say. The USSR never had State enforced atheism is my main point. The USSR had Jews, Muslims and Buddhists, etc, too.

History is never all inclusive as to it's action or recording and goes in myriad "directions" just as evolution/natural selection does. But it can more or less "repeat" itself in general ways if societies keep doing similar things over and over, yes. For e.g., capitalism "booms and busts" and leaves millions of working class people destroyed in it's wake and this repeats/cycles as long as there is capitalism.

The US is a heavily religious(75% Christian) country and we are essentially well into a Christo-fascist, theocratic State with the current (Nazi)administration--but it's been building "below ground" for decades. Pence is a Dominionist and then you have the far Right "Freedom Caucus"(Chaffetz and the gang) of the Republican Party. "American Taliban", as they say.
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18-03-2017, 05:00 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(18-03-2017 04:51 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Alright!

Us Freds need to stick together.
Yes, there's POWER in the name! My actual real given middle name is Frederick--German style.
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18-03-2017, 05:11 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-02-2017 09:11 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(22-01-2017 10:14 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Communism and anarchism are much less anti-religious than they are anti-clerical.

Damn! I somehow skipped over your post before making mine.
You made in one concise sentence a point I blabbered on for about four paragraphs to get to.Blush

Ah well, live and learn . . .
That's a perfect and concise way of stating the point. And I am already finding that there are more politically informed/smart people--i.e., anarchists, socialist/ communists--on this atheist forum than on this other one I was on--where they were mostly atheists but serious capitalist defenders all in anti-commie propaganda brainwashed lock-step, attacking me from all sides, EGAD! And this is a "yooge" relief! Thumbsup

The Nicaraguan Sandinistas were "Christian Socialists", BTW, as per Acts 4:35 and Marx.
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18-03-2017, 06:09 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2017 06:25 AM by Fred Hampton.)
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-01-2017 02:09 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(21-01-2017 06:45 PM)momo666 Wrote:  Were they the result of anti-religious sentiment ? I have heard this claim recently and I want to know what is your take on it.
Communism or more to the point marxism-leninism was just another religion - it has it chosen people (proletariat), prophet whose writings made core of the faith (Lenin), devil (capitalists) and paradise (communism).
You are speaking figuratively, not literally, using metaphor rather than fact. Marxism is not a religion. It is a science based on the theory of "Historical Materialism". It focuses on the control of resources and means of production in human society. It does not offer any belief in a God(s), which is central to religion.

Marx was a materialist and atheist. He scientifically analysed the material, socioeconomic relations of Man and, particularly, the capitalist system. The fact that he or Lenin or Mao or Che' or Castro, etc, were/are "worshiped" is just an evolutionary/cultural vestige of mass human behavior due to 1000s of years of being ruled by individuals or offered up individuals, say the Pope, to worship. But those particular individuals--Marx, etc-- did not take a stance of desiring to be worshiped. The proletariat are not "chosen", they are necessarily engaged in the class struggle from the day they are born into the system. The communist society is NOT portrayed by Marx or Engels as a "Utopian Paradise" but as the logical evolved result of persistent, intentional class struggle by the proletariat to overthrow the bourgeoisie and eradicate capitalism altogether.

I realize Chomsky, in one instance, declared Marxism to be a religion, but he is also wrong for the reasons I stated. He also calls himself an, "anarchosocialist", which essentially means he's a communist.

You can't have a religion w/o God.
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