Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
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20-03-2017, 06:47 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 04:30 PM)abaris Wrote:  I don't know where you get your informations from, but it was actually Mao being responsible for the famine.
Yeah, I thought about mentioning that, but I had other fish to fry.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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20-03-2017, 06:49 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Thanks for answering my questions, Doc.

Fred: '

Quote:And then there are the Japs and Shang Kai Shek.

Japs? Really? Even if that's supposed to be in some kind of context that's bad form.
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20-03-2017, 06:50 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 04:34 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  The "mystical" implies some sort of non natural law occurring phenomena, if that be just plain ol' "spirits". Lao Tsu makes reference to "The Mother of the Tao", i.e., a Creator of the Tao, way back in the day. If it is just some kind of nebulous "energy" concept, then it effectively isnt religion, just ask Dawkins. Really, we're talking about religions that have Grade A supernatural 4D God(s) that do stuff, in the human material world, they intervene, which is what most people believe and what they're religions are all about. People can shout all they want that Marxism is a religion but they are wrong.

It seems somehow to have escaped you that I am agreeing with your main point: Marxism is not a religion.

You seem more intent on gainsaying the reasoning used to support that agreement.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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20-03-2017, 07:01 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Really? Supply some proof, links, please.

Mao's Great Famine: The History of China's Most Devastating Catastrophe, 1958-1962

Tombstone: The Great Chinese Famine, 1958-1962

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Dr H

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20-03-2017, 07:04 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 04:40 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  The anarchists will never gain power over anything, so keep on keepin' on breaking those Starbucks' windows and throwing rocks at cops and hiding out in squattages.

I'm starting to suspect that you actually may not know a whole lot about anarchism.

I hope you're not emulating our president, and getting most of your information from Faux News.

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Dr H

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20-03-2017, 07:06 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Asking for links to establish Mao's destructiveness really shouldn't be taken seriously.

Do we also need links to prove that Hiroshima was bombed?
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20-03-2017, 07:30 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 05:12 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Looks like. I'm totally unconvinced by your take and I see why you could feel the same.
Fair enough.

Quote:Paradise on earth achieved by working class destined to end alienation and jump from real of necessity to realm of freedom could be called mystical I would say.
I would say that's a misinterpretation based on a bit of "salting the mine", as it were. I've know a few pretty vehement communists, but none who ever asserted they expected to achieve "paradise on earth".

Quote:Hardly. It have it saints and prophets, promised utopia, sinners.
If one is willing to stretch the definitions of a whole handful of terms to this extent, one could also argue that democracy, republicanism, environmentalism, veganism, and a whole host of other "isms" are also religions. Although none are generally considered to be such.

Quote:I realize though that what I write and what is written in the book are two different things. I'm convinced that m-l was religion but if I didn't know this book it's quite possible that I would see it like ideology with religious themes or something like that.
To convince me, it would first have to convince me that there were mystical elements to Marxism -- Engles coming back from the dead on Mayday; Lenin walking on water; proletariats each getting 72 virgins in the afterlife; or at least Gus Hall's face appearing on my next taco -- something like that.


Quote:That's nothing more than reductio ad absurdum.
Exactly.

However, one can conceive of less extreme examples that would still illustrate the point.


Quote:I disagree. This quote shows m-l for what it is and it is nothing more than another religion.
Perhaps what I need to see is your working definition of "religion".

Quote:Again I disagree. Atheism isn't religion, but m-l was, yet only by twisting truth one can ascribe crimes of bolsheviks and rest to atheism. They killed cause they had faith in principles of m-l or local variation, not cause they didn't believed in local variant of space wizard.
By that reasoning, virtually every war is a religious war.
Do you honestly believe that?


Quote:Also communism never was* so yes it couldn't have been religion, marxism-leninism on the other hand...

*Even USSR satisfied itself with declaring to having achieved "really existing socialism" during Brezhnev era. Countries of Soviet bloc according to Andrzej Walicki thought themselves as countries that are in process of building communism, they were called communist by it's enemies.
A fair point; thanks for bringing it out.

I will say, though, that my apologist made no distinction between m-l and communism -- to him, they were different names for the same thing.
Nor is he untutored or provincial -- he lived for 4 years in the Soviet Union, and spend at least a dozen traveling in China, and just earned a Ph.D. last year from Oxford University College of Theology and Religion.

None of which necessarily makes him right, of course, but he has less reason to be wrong than most.Wink

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20-03-2017, 07:36 PM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2017 07:40 PM by Dr H.)
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 05:24 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  The world will be over before the anarchists "educate to raise awareness", with their multiheaded beast of categories that none of them agree on. The revolution, once again, will pass by the waiting-around, twiddling-their-thumbs anarchists:

And, no doubt, the communists will once again be happy to have anarchists fighting at their sides, when the communists decide it's time to make the apple drop.

Until the communists organize yet another socialist state, and the anarchists want to opt out, at which point the anarchists will be scapegoated, once again.

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Dr H

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20-03-2017, 07:38 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 05:56 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  Well, to reiterate, the anarchists will never get organized into something resembling a unified program with a purpose, so at best will spend the rest of time hanging out on the fringes in enclaves of artists, organic gardners, punk rockers, LSD groupies, squatters, rock throwers, and various this and that's.

And filling out the ranks of the communists, when they can't find enough of their own to man the barricades.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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20-03-2017, 10:05 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(20-03-2017 12:28 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  
(20-03-2017 12:18 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  You fail to acknowledge that definition =|= reality.
Pardon me, huh???

I am a pragmatist and a realist so I see the world as it is and not as a definition.
The concept of communism is at best a fanciful dream and at worst a convenient vehicle to fool the masses and concentrate all the power and wealth on a few, thus an oligarchy. A billionaire in a capitalist society is but an insignificant speck compared to the power and wealth that men such as Mao, Stalin and Castro have wielded through fear and oppression.

You seem to embrace the definition without examining the reality. Communism is a failed concept, not because it doesn’t have altruistic merit, but because it fails to take into consideration the human traits we all possess.

Communism will always be nothing more than an unworkable pipe dream of the idealists. Drinking Beverage

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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