Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
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22-03-2017, 03:34 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(21-03-2017 06:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 05:09 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I don't know what you hear but I don't hear capitalism being hailed as mean of achieving utopia. True, it has not so rational proponents here, but their rhetoric's looks like: less regulation would be better for me and fuck everybody else. No philosophy, just greed and lack of care about others.

I’m really enjoying this conversation, learning a thing or two.

I tried to make the point to FH that our human instincts don’t play well into communism; altruism can’t be dictated by decree. Capitalism fits better into our survival instincts, that is taking care of the self, then family, then close friends. At each degree of separation the individual seems to exponentially lose the feelings of responsibility for the other.

Are any of you familiar with Dunbar’s number?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
“Dunbar’s number is a suggested cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships—relationships in which an individual knows who each person is and how each person relates to every other person.” The number is 150 in case you’re wondering.

I bring this up because outside of this limit close social contracts* break down. One thing is living in a small commune where everyone is related and everything is shared equally, quite another to be forced to do so with 7.5 billion other human beings.

While Capitalism is not a perfect solution by any means, it doesn’t stifle individual human drive the way Communism does. One only need to compare the per capita output between nations under both political systems to see what I mean. An even better comparison is the Human Development Index, “a composite statistic of life expectancy, education, and income per capita indicators. A country scores higher HDI when the life expectancy at birth is longer, the education period is longer, and the income per capita is higher.”

Countries with capitalist democracies score the best as can be seen here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co...ment_Index. China is tied for 50th place despite having one of the oldest societies, abundant natural resources and largest human capital on the planet. What has held them back has been their political structure, chiefly communism.

Hard to argue with results.

*Social Contract Theory http://www.iep.utm.edu/soc-cont/
http://www2.econ.iastate.edu/classes/eco...Helium.pdf deals with Equality of need, Scarcity of resources, Equality of human power and Limited altruism.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. ~ Winston Churchill

It's but a quibble - communism never was. Soviet bloc countries or USSR at any rate achieved really existing socialism and then stopped on the road to Utopia. Label of communist countries was given to them by the West which more or less saw communism=totalitarianism. At least such is Andrzej Walicki interpretation in his From the Communist Project to the Neoliberal Utopia.

"Socialism" works best when it is used to criticize capitalism and show that something can be achieved. Such is Zygmunt Bauman take in Socialism: The Active Utopia and I tend to agree.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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22-03-2017, 04:26 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-03-2017 03:34 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  "Socialism" works best when it is used to criticize capitalism and show that something can be achieved. Such is Zygmunt Bauman take in Socialism: The Active Utopia and I tend to agree.

Yes, pretty much. It's the counterweight to capitalism and without it we would still live under the conditions of the Industrial revolution. When the workers joined forces, they were able to fight for rights we now take for granted.

China, a travesty of socialism, the USA even, are the best exampled what happens when nobody stands up for their rights. Next to no workplace protections and a system of hire and fire that can land you in the gutter without a moment's notice.
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22-03-2017, 04:38 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-03-2017 04:26 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 03:34 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  "Socialism" works best when it is used to criticize capitalism and show that something can be achieved. Such is Zygmunt Bauman take in Socialism: The Active Utopia and I tend to agree.

Yes, pretty much. It's the counterweight to capitalism and without it we would still live under the conditions of the Industrial revolution. When the workers joined forces, they were able to fight for rights we now take for granted.
Thats called "reformism'. Soc-comm revs TAKE away the "rights" of the capitalist to exist as capitalists and thus eliminate their ability to do further harm to the masses.

[Image: quote-a-revolution-is-not-a-dinner-party...249905.jpg]
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22-03-2017, 06:18 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
What's your take on Pol Pot?
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22-03-2017, 06:33 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
So you (and your hero Mao) are advertising violence?

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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22-03-2017, 08:45 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Mao was all about overthrowing the elite except for when those mobs got anywhere near him. Then he had them shot dead.
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22-03-2017, 04:04 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(21-03-2017 06:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I’m really enjoying this conversation, learning a thing or two.

I tried to make the point to FH that our human instincts don’t play well into communism; altruism can’t be dictated by decree.
Agreed that you can't achieve altruism by decree. But I think cultural conditioning is often misrepresented as "human instincts". The earliest human societies were mostly collectivist. At least until they unwisely allowed a priest class to develop.

Quote:Capitalism fits better into our survival instincts, that is taking care of the self, then family, then close friends.
I don't see anything about the desire to take care of self, family, and friends (and I would add, community) that requires capitalism. Indeed, capitalism requires capital, which usually necessitates some form of government to create and manage the capital. This immediately steps pretty far outside of the little self-family-friends circle, and hands off much of your personal power to a third party who may not -- and typically does not -- have your best interests as their first priority.

Quote:Are any of you familiar with Dunbar’s number?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
“Dunbar’s number is a suggested cognitive limit to the number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships—relationships in which an individual knows who each person is and how each person relates to every other person.” The number is 150 in case you’re wondering. I bring this up because outside of this limit close social contracts* break down.
I'm familiar with it. It has been criticized, for example:

Maintaining Relationships: The Fallacy of Dunbar’s Number

But beyond that, I would question why it would be necessary to know each person individually, or have a direct relationship with them, in order to decide to treat them fairly and humanely? If you want to bring "instinct" into it, one thing every successful species needs is an instinct to protect and propagate the species. A species which lacks, or loses that imperative tends to be weeded out through the process of evolution.

Quote:One thing is living in a small commune where everyone is related and everything is shared equally, quite another to be forced to do so with 7.5 billion other human beings.
True, and that number is too large, I think, to have a successful global anarchist society. I would also note, however, that one of the factors which brings a species down evolutionarily, is over population. We should think long and hard about that.

Quote:While Capitalism is not a perfect solution by any means, it doesn’t stifle individual human drive the way Communism does.
Individual drive is exactly what it does stifle.

"Capitalists claim that the private-enterprise system provides the perfect climate for the full expression of the innate human competitive drive. The system unharnesses this drive by promising not only unprecedented rewards to the winner, but a better society for all. By this claim, capitalism positions itself as the world's first economic system perfectly consistent with 'human nature'.
However, competition existed long before the arrival of capitalism. This is self-evident in the history of athletics, art, war, trade, empire, exploration, and so much more. The competitive drive was never 'dormant' -- it just had other avenues of expression prior to capitalism. Undoubtedly, capitalism directs the drive into new areas -- and the political democracy that accompanied the new system certainly allowed more people into formerly closed competitive arenas in which they could now profit.
The rigid class divisions of pre-capitalist feudal societies offered little opportunity for increased individual wealth among the masses, and therefore stifled individual competition for upward social movement. However, while the democratic revolutions overthrew the old aristocracies -- theoretically opening the door to upward mobility for everyone -- the intense class divisions resulting from capitalism reprise the thwarted competition of feudal societies. Individuals in today's poorer classes may be highly competitive, but their chances of catapulting into the higher echelons of society are almost as slim as were those of the peasants six hundred years ago.
"
-- Tore, Andrew; Myths of Capitalism: A guide for the 99%; XLIBRIS; Bloomington, Indiana: 2014. ISBN: 978-1-49-904151-4

Quote:One only need to compare the per capita output between nations under both political systems to see what I mean.
Per capita output means little if it isn't going towards improving the lives of the people producing the output.

It's the old fallacy of averages: nine households in an area have an annual income of $10,000, and one household has an annual income of $410,000. The per capita annual income of that neighborhood is $50,000 -- try telling that to the 9 households that only take in $10K.

Quote:An even better comparison is the Human Development Index, “a composite statistic of life expectancy, education, and income per capita indicators. A country scores higher HDI when the life expectancy at birth is longer, the education period is longer, and the income per capita is higher.”
The HDI suffers from the same problem as per capita ratings -- if focuses on national averages, which tells you little about individuals or particular population groups that make up those averages. Additionally, several economists have criticized both the data and analysis methods used to calculate the HDI, and argued that at least a third of the nations rated have been misclassified. For example:

Classification, Detection and Consequences of Data Error: Evidence from the Human Development Index

Quote: What has held them back has been their political structure, chiefly communism.
Their political structure has been chiefly an authoritarian oligarchy, not communism.
Their economic structure was largely communist, but has become more and more capitalist-oriented since the 1980s.

Quote:Hard to argue with results.
Actually, it's pretty easy, when the methods used to calculate the results appear to have been biased (see the Wolff/Chong/Auffhammer reference, previously cited)


"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." ~John Kenneth Galbraith

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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22-03-2017, 04:05 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(21-03-2017 07:36 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:7.5 billion

That's the real problem.

Agreed. The source of many of our other problems.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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22-03-2017, 04:15 PM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2017 06:50 PM by Dr H.)
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(21-03-2017 07:55 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  Oh, they still do electroshock,
Only as a treatment of last resort in cases of major depression and, rarely, catatonia. It is almost always administered with the patient's voluntary informed consent, and these days is done under general anesthesia. From more than 100,000 cases per year in the US in the 1950s, the number of instances has dropped to fewer than 1500 per year.

Quote:Neuroscience is a different animal than your basic Jungian/Freudian/Pavlovian stuff,
Indeed: psychology and psychiatry are different fields. As are experimental and clinical psychology.

And there aren't a great many therapists still employing 100 year old analysis therapies. A few, granted, but judging the entire science of psychology by those few is like judging the current state of aviation by the handful of pilots who get their jollies flying Sopwith Camels.

Quote:Psych wards are horror chambers. Go visit one sometime.
I've worked in them, and in half-way houses.

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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22-03-2017, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2017 04:31 PM by Fred Hampton.)
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
DUNBAR'S DUMBASS FUCKING NUMBER!!!! LOLOLOL, you guys are killing me with this shit! Keep them hits a comin'! !st World Muricans, gotta love it!

Hey, let's all follow DUNBAR, woohoo! What is this, Dimitry Orlov bullshit! That guy made a house sail boat out of PLYWOOD so he dont gots to pay RENT! That guy wants to start a Dunbar limited 150 peeps COMMUNE and call it a "religion" so they dont gots to pay TAXES to the cap Man! Woohoo, Dunbar, Orlov, hope and change! Go for it! VIVA LA DUNBAR ORLOV REVOLUCION!
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