Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-03-2017, 06:17 PM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2017 06:35 PM by Fred Hampton.)
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
ADVISO: if any of y'all get really really depressed and feel suicidal and go to an ER or shrink and she/he asks you if you feel suicidal or homicidal: your CLEAR and CONCISE answer is "NO!" Or, better yet, "NEVER!" If you stumble into their trap and happen to be so out of it you mumble in an apathetic stupor, "yeah", or just passively nod your head, you have just, in effect, railroaded your bad self and they will lock yo' ass up in on of those horror of horror chambers they call a "mental ward", where the for-profit psych drug lords and docs milk you for everything they can get out of you while they dress you half naked and humiliate you and treat you like a 3 year old with their Pavlovian Dog tricks--YOU bein's the "dog": "If you want coffee, you have to take a pill", "if you want to use the bathroom, you have to take your pill", etc etc.

And you are in the clink there with, uh, lets say, the type of people you would never ever see bopping around out there on the streets. And you might have to bring in a lawyer to get yourself escaped out the back Jack.....

Just a heads up...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2017, 06:22 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-03-2017 06:17 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  ADVISO: if any of y'all get really really depressed and feel suicidal and go to a shrink and she/he asks you if you feel suicidal or homocidal: your CLEAR answer is "NO!" If you stumble into their trap and happen to be so out of you mumble, "yes", you have just, in effect, railroaded your bad self and they will lock yo ass up in on of those hooro chambers they call a "mental ward", where the for profit psych drug lords and docs milk you for everything they can get out of you while they humiliate you and treat you like a 3 year old with their Pavlovian Dog tricks--YOU bein's the "dog". "If you want coffee, you have to take a pill", "if you want to use the bathroom, you have to take your pill", etc etc. And you might have to bring a lawyer to get yourself out the back jack.....

Just a heads up...

That's not like the one's I've been in. Cool
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2017, 06:30 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-03-2017 06:22 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(22-03-2017 06:17 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  ADVISO: if any of y'all get really really depressed and feel suicidal and go to a shrink and she/he asks you if you feel suicidal or homocidal: your CLEAR answer is "NO!" If you stumble into their trap and happen to be so out of you mumble, "yes", you have just, in effect, railroaded your bad self and they will lock yo ass up in on of those hooro chambers they call a "mental ward", where the for profit psych drug lords and docs milk you for everything they can get out of you while they humiliate you and treat you like a 3 year old with their Pavlovian Dog tricks--YOU bein's the "dog". "If you want coffee, you have to take a pill", "if you want to use the bathroom, you have to take your pill", etc etc. And you might have to bring a lawyer to get yourself out the back jack.....

Just a heads up...

That's not like the one's I've been in. Cool
You must be an uptown kinda monkey.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2017, 06:36 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-03-2017 02:59 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  That's not the case in Poland and capitalism being hailed as solution to every problem is not the same as m-l promises which you ignore. No ending of the so called alienation and no jumping from realm of necessity to realm of freedom.
I haven't ignored them; I pointed out parallels between promises made by m-l and promises made by capitalism.

Quote:Capitalism is answer to earthly problems and it can be shown that it fails as an answer (private prisons would be good example I guess). M-l promises had religious bent:
You see it as religious because of your particular definition of 'religion'. To me, utopian earthly philosophies are not synonymous with religion.

I would point out, also, that a number of anarchist thinkers were critical of Trotsky -- Goldman, for instance.

Quote:What Trotsky describes above is nothing more than heaven on earth.
Lots of people had philosophies which envisioned utopian societies -- Harrington; Moore; even BF Skinner. Few of them have been credited with starting a religion.

As regards Trotsky's claims, compare them with these claims made about capitalism:

"For American productivity to again become a reality, we must connect humane, compassionate ideals with clear-headed fiscal prudence that affirms the image of God in all persons, the dignity of work, the reality of debt and the value of personal responsibility. This is the secret our founders knew—and it is also critical to the survival and flourishing of our free enterprise system, which has the power to lift millions out of poverty." -- Speaking into the silence: Conservatives and poverty

"The basic idea of capitalism is that if we are left free to choose what we want most, we’ll get the most of what we want. That is all there is to it. Any alternative whatever to capitalism can only be a system in which the police may compel us to take B when we would prefer A."
"Given freedom to choose between alternatives as the single basic premise, all the institutions and gadgets of capitalism are then free to grow out of it all by themselves. Human beings, free to choose what things they will work and wait for, will spontaneously invent not only physical apparatus but also institutional conveniences, whereby working and waiting will pay off in more and more wants met and appetites satisfied."
"The moral of all this is that if we simply trust to human freedom as it exhibits itself in the market economy, we shall find that all will be as well as we can expect human affairs to be."
" In this century which the Common Man—whoever he may be—has had held up to him as his very own, he first of all should stand ready to defend capitalism as a system made to order for him. Above all, it promises him freedom to transform himself, if he can, into something else less common." -- The Essence of Capitalism

"What the free-enterprise system—Smith’s “obvious and simple system of natural liberty”—proposes, then, is the adoption of those political and economic institutions
that manage to combine not one but two great moral imperatives: allowing people the opportunity to rise from the impoverished existence that seems to be humanity’s miserable, if equal, status quo; and respecting people as the irreplaceable and precious individuals that they are. That is a sublime conjunction
of material prosperity and moral agency, the likes of which no other system of political economy has ever contemplated, let alone achieved
." -- The Moral Case for Capitalism

See also:

The Promise of Absolute Wealth: Capitalism as a Religion?

Quote:You may think that it is some kind of slippery slope but I don't ascribe to such views; calling religion (m-l) a religion won't make "identifying" atheism as religion any easier. People deluded enough to conflate the two will do it regardless. M-l held multitude of promises, atheism is just lack of belief and it promises nothing. So anyone trying to argue that atheism is religion cause m-l was one is just a fool.
Atheism was only one of the examples I gave. Using your rationale, capitalism (see above); republicanism; democracy; environmentalism -- virtually any life- or economy-influencing philosophy could legitimately be classified as a religion.

Quote:Maybe it cause term heretic is fitting when it comes to USSR and rigid adherence to party line? You offer no serious argument, it's only stretching the term, nonsense like drinking beer religiously and it seems fear of some slippery slope where calling m-l religion will bolster theists "argument" that "atheism is religion".
I could turn that charge around on you: you want me to consider m-l to be a religion -- why, then, do you refuse consider capitalism, et al, in the same way? You have offered no serious argument against what you call a "slippery slope", merely denial. Why should I consider your denial any more valid than my own?

As to the beer drinking example -- I try to offer simple, easily relatable examples when making analogies. When an analogy becomes too complex, it becomes easier to lose track of the fact that it is just an analogy.

Regardless of what you think of previous examples, I have just given you references to similar statements made about capitalism, and even to a scholarly article which proposes treating capitalism as a religion -- based on very similar arguments to those you make for m-l. You can hardly dismiss these examples as mere silliness or nonsense.

Quote:You could try to deny that use of terms like heretic is sensible in context of Soviet history but your tries does not make said terms invalid. Look for the quote from Trotsky for example We can only be right with and by the Party, for history has provided no other way of being in the right... And if the Party adopts a decision which one or other of us thinks unjust, he will say, just or unjust, it is my party, and I shall support the consequences of the decision to the end. It's from Speech at the XIIIth Party Congress (May 1924).
Fine. But again, such sentiments are by no means limited to m-l. Other non-religious systems have employed them liberally. In America we have, for example:
  • America: Love it or leave it.
  • My country: right or wrong.
  • America first.
  • He who loves not his country, can love nothing.
  • America is the only nation in the world that is founded on creed.
  • American exceptionalism is the recurring character in the nation's narrative.
  • American exceptionalism requires understanding biblical view.

Is American nationalism a religion?

Quote:You offered just your disagreement supported by nothing. You may find yourself convinced by your so called rebuttal but I'm not.
You are welcome to remain unconvinced by my rebuttal. You have, however, presented nothing to counter it, other than simple denial.

I remain unconvinced by your denial.

Quote:I doubt that you can be convinced. I try to translate relevant fragments from Imos book but without lack of grounding in form of earlier chapters it probably wont amount to much.
Is that the book which convinced you?
Is it available in English? I'm willing to read it.

I have, however, read other essays from people who considered the connection between communism and religion (and again, I use their term, "communism", which most have not considered as distinct from m-l). For example:

Communism as Religion

Most of these have either relied -- as you do -- on definitions for "religion" which differ from the general norm, or else they have qualified their analysis with such terms as "the quasi-religious elements of Marxism" (as Kula does in the article cited, above).

So you're right: I probably won't be convinced. Nonetheless, I'm willing to examine the argument in context, if possible.

Quote:Soviet myth is similar to mythology of tribal societies, which means it gives complete explanation of world, nature and social phenomenon, meaning and goals of events[...]prophet is made by given to him mission and mandate for saying truth. He judges the social and moral reality from perspective of well known past and he knows how to interpret future: prophet thanks to depths of his perception see world in light of it's final destination*. Eschatology plays big role in prophet-ism. Said characteristics fit with activities of Marks, Engels, and Lenin[...]Prophets don't do spectacular things, their superhuman qualities are part of their message. [Rafał Imos, Faith of the Soviet Man. The Soviet's Institutionalized Myth, p. 289, 293 300 of 2007 edition].
I acknowledge that Marxism (like evolution) has been forced into areas in which it has been an uncomfortable fit -- like "Marxist science". That still does not involve the key element of mysticism/supernaturalism which is, in my eyes, necessary to define something as "religion".

Worth noting that there have been those who have charged that science itself is a religion, and they use reasoning similar to that advanced for claiming religious status for m-l.

Quote:It's hard to be convincing in discussion with someone who don't want to be convinced.
I could say the same.

We may have to agree to disagree, and move on.

Quote:Which is way more than you did, mr. let's not call it religion cause it will give theists more arguments.
No sir. I gave other examples besides that; you chose to disregard them as "slippery slopes". You have not argued against them, you have simply dismissed them.

Quote:You just disagree, even when one of definitions (Oxford one) you provided can be used to make argument about m-l being religion.
I did concede that you have a valid argument, given your definition of 'religion'.

I still, however, don't agree with your definition of 'religion', and you've done little to convince me to move towards it.


Quote:It has no consequences and your insistence on that won't change this.
I have demonstrated -- with citations -- that it does have consequences.
You don't like them, so you reject them out of hand, but you have not refuted them.

Quote:And there is nothing that you can allow here as this approach went through peer review and wasn't found wanting. No matter how much you disagree with it and what are your fears about it such approach is valid.
Peer review has established that m-l is a religion? Somehow I seem to have missed that. Yes, there have been articles published on the subject; they still amount to social science speculation.

Communism has defined itself as incompatible with religion: "Religion and communism are incompatible, both theoretically and practically." -- Why religion and communism are incompatible

For you, or a handful of social scientists to come along and contradict that self-definition is not unlike you or I telling a practicing Lutheran that he's "not really a Christian".

Quote:Perhaps? Can't bring yourself to agree that m-l seem to be religion even in light of definition your provided?
In view of the definition which YOU favor, I have already agreed to as much.

Your definition, however, is neither mine, nor most people's.

I have been striving to find a way in which we can amicably continue to disagree on this point, but you seen bound and determined to try to convert me to your view -- despite saying you don't think it's possible.

Perhaps you just take joy from the argument itself? Wink

Quote:When I think about philosophy of life I think about words life's shit and then you die or There is only one good, knowledge and only one evil, ignorance so there is no mistaking religion for philosophy for me.
Ah! OK, then we may have uncovered another fundamental difference.

'Philosophy of life' for me is much more than mere aphorisms. It is a set of ideas, beliefs, ideals, and goals which govern my actions, my relationships, and from which I form the basis of my personal moral system. My personal philosophy is roughly based on rationality, a scientific epistemology, social anarchism, and a general fondness for, and joy in my fellow humans. From that I derive a strong commitment to personal liberty, belief in personal responsibility, support for community, desire for justice, and a pursuit of knowledge based on solid evidence.

In short, it is a set of beliefs which play a functional role in my life, my societal relationships, and my psychology.

But I still wouldn't call it a "religion".

Quote:So you agree but disagree?
Pretty much. Yes

Quote:It probably won't dispel any notions.

Perhaps you could try Czesław Miłosz The Captive Mind who too likens m-l to religion. Civil one if I recall correctly.
He is a poet, yes?

Ah... found it on Amazon. OK, I'll read and be convinced. Maybe.

Well, I will read it, anyway Big Grin Thanks for the reference.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2017, 06:39 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-03-2017 03:34 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  "Socialism" works best when it is used to criticize capitalism and show that something can be achieved.

There, I also agree.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-03-2017 06:33 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  So you (and your hero Mao) are advertising violence?
I'm sure Fred will answer for himself, but I have to comment that it's not an advertisement.

Revolution, by its nature, is violent. Mao was simply being honest in that statement.

Aphorisms are, however, much like sound-bites. They don't (can't) present the whole picture.
Such as, for example, whether or not revolution is always necessary, or, if it ever is, when?

I prefer education and evolution to revolution, but there are times when the passive way is insufficient to the task at hand.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2017, 06:56 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-03-2017 04:23 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  DUNBAR'S DUMBASS FUCKING NUMBER!!!! LOLOLOL, you guys are killing me with this shit! Keep them hits a comin'! !st World Muricans, gotta love it!

Hey, let's all follow DUNBAR, woohoo! What is this, Dimitry Orlov bullshit! That guy made a house sail boat out of PLYWOOD so he dont gots to pay RENT! That guy wants to start a Dunbar limited 150 peeps COMMUNE and call it a "religion" so they dont gots to pay TAXES to the cap Man! Woohoo, Dunbar, Orlov, hope and change! Go for it! VIVA LA DUNBAR ORLOV REVOLUCION!

The meds, Fred. Must remember to take the meds.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dr H's post
22-03-2017, 06:58 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-03-2017 05:16 PM)Fred Hampton Wrote:  I prefer my unelectroshocked brain, tyvm Smile

Hey, don't knock it until you've tried it. Shocking

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(22-03-2017 05:17 PM)ImFred Wrote:  We must not let our Western obsession with free expression allow you to poorly represent the cause of the proletariate. Once you accept your role as an intellectual as inferior to the sweat and toil of the peasant you'll be free to express yourself (in a proper limited context). You see, Comrade Hampton, you and your bourgeois vocabulary has no place in the movement. Burn your dictionaries, let go of your counter-revolutionary ways, and go collect a suitable amount of material that might be converted to steel. When your body consumes itself with hunger feed yourself with the sound of industrialization.

Damn, you're good at that. Big Grin

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-03-2017, 07:02 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
I think 'ol Freddy's a poe.

It's really interesting but if you dismiss the copy pastas and youtube videos he's basically said nothing about what he actually thinks more than a few words.

The real discussion has come from others and not based on anything he's actually said either.

Food for thought...


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Momsurroundedbyboys's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: