Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
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08-04-2017, 06:14 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
That's a stupid argument. There are laws keeping people in check, there are checks and balances to try and keep the worst out of government abuse. Not perfect and of course not always working, but not as outlandish than the appeal to human kindness. That doesn't grow on the tree of evolution. Anarchism means everyone for themselves, since, by definition, there are no regulations. And the moment someone goes out and mugs or kills their neighbour, you can't sanction them, unless you get rid of anarchism to reinstall a system of sanctions.

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08-04-2017, 06:16 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 02:19 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Is that something like Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms?

That's a bureau; he's talking about an antique tableau.

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08-04-2017, 06:18 AM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2017 06:24 AM by Chas.)
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 04:09 AM)ImFred Wrote:  
(08-04-2017 03:59 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Agreed. Anarchy falls apart the second someone figures out that they can improve their survival chances by teaming up with another person for mutual benefit.

This realization takes all of half a second.

With a shift of consciousness the social contract could be to resist all types of heirarchy. Then we're free.

There is no way to enforce the contract.

Do you understand the concept of "the tragedy of the commons"?

Quote:The tragedy of the commons is an economic problem in which every individual tries to reap the greatest benefit from a given resource.
As the demand for the resource overwhelms the supply, every individual who consumes an additional unit directly harms others who can no longer enjoy the benefits.

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08-04-2017, 06:20 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 05:40 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Every argument against anarchism that boils down to people being shitty can also be used to argue against government.

Not really. The design of the government does have to take shittiness into account, though.

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08-04-2017, 06:21 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 06:04 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Governments are made up of people Drinking Beverage

Your point? Consider

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08-04-2017, 06:25 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 06:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-04-2017 06:04 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Governments are made up of people Drinking Beverage

Your point? Consider

If people are shitty they shouldn't be allowed to govern one another.

Scoff all you want, it's airtight.
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08-04-2017, 06:27 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 06:25 AM)ImFred Wrote:  If people are shitty they shouldn't be allowed to govern one another.

Scoff all you want, it's airtight.

And your alternative model would look like what? I mean using the same premisse of people being stupid, which, by the way, isn't what I argue for. Stupidness is the least of the problems. Being a social and territorial species is.

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08-04-2017, 06:40 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
I don't have an alternative model. This shit is so bad I'm willing to go with the devil I don't know.

I know for sure this isn't working.

People say well without government people will come and kill you to take your shit. I'm thinking that's exactly what governments do. If people can't be trusted with the freedom of anarchism surely they shouldn't be even more profoundly empowered by being recognized as a legitimate governing force.
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08-04-2017, 07:15 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 06:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  Do you understand the concept of "the tragedy of the commons"?

For some reason, idealists seem to think everyone else is an idealist too.

I live behind a 7-Eleven, and if I want the alley and my property to be free of the garbage people throw out haphazardly, I have to pick it up myself -- which I do every other day.

That's what anarchy means to me.

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08-04-2017, 07:21 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 06:40 AM)ImFred Wrote:  People say well without government people will come and kill you to take your shit. I'm thinking that's exactly what governments do. If people can't be trusted with the freedom of anarchism surely they shouldn't be even more profoundly empowered by being recognized as a legitimate governing force.

I guess we can agree that we're a social species with great apes as our ancestors. Even they have a hierarchy and rules for them living together. That's what we've always been, that's what we will be as long as there's no reason for nature to take the next step of evolution.

Hence we have to accept and work with what we are. Social, within bounds, territorial, tribal.

I hear you when you say this system is far from perfect and needs to be reformed. But not following some old utopia that goes against everything within our nature. It needs to be reformed in a way that makes sure noone gets left behind and that the group takes care of each other instead of fighting over morsels. It's also an ideal and probably won't work anytime soon, but in respect to our inherent nature it could work at some point in time.

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