Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
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08-04-2017, 07:25 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 06:25 AM)ImFred Wrote:  
(08-04-2017 06:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your point? Consider

If people are shitty they shouldn't be allowed to govern one another.

Scoff all you want, it's airtight.

Air tight? No, it is just hot air.

You are being utterly simplistic and not even trying to understand cooperation, negotiation, checks and balances, and so forth.
The purpose of government is to protect the individual, and that entails compromise.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-04-2017, 08:15 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Quote:You are being utterly simplistic and not even trying to understand cooperation, negotiation, checks and balances, and so forth.

Which one of those things isn't dependent on people executing it with a sense of morality and responsibility?

Checks and balances is going to be your best answer to which I'm going to reply the US Constitution has given the world the most environmentally destructive and militaristic society ever known.
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08-04-2017, 11:25 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 08:15 AM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:You are being utterly simplistic and not even trying to understand cooperation, negotiation, checks and balances, and so forth.

Which one of those things isn't dependent on people executing it with a sense of morality and responsibility?

All of them. All it takes is enlightened self interest.

Quote:Checks and balances is going to be your best answer to which I'm going to reply the US Constitution has given the world the most environmentally destructive and militaristic society ever known.

No, the U.S. Constitution did not do that - people did. And your assessment is not correct.

Sparta was far more militaristic and every industrialized nation is environmentally destructive, e.g. China.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-04-2017, 11:31 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 06:40 AM)ImFred Wrote:  I don't have an alternative model. This shit is so bad I'm willing to go with the devil I don't know.


Sure, vote for ignorance. That sounds helpful.

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08-04-2017, 01:01 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 05:40 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Every argument against anarchism that boils down to people being shitty can also be used to argue against government.
People aren't shitty.
People are trying to survive and thrive in an environment of limited resources, hence people must compete against each other. Competition is a necessity.

A governing structure sets some enforced rules under which that competition can proceed without being too destructive to the society as a whole.

There is no nirvana. There is no fair playground. Some people are always going to get the advantage.
Under the governed rules, it is the wealthy and the politically connected that get the advantage. Without government it would be those who are strong, those with numbers, weapons and strategic positioning. Yes, you could argue that a government is strong, with numbers, weapons and strategic positioning.

But under democratic countries the government has a limited time to prove their value otherwise they get voted out. The value of the government being, delivery of campaign promises, improving the "thriving" of a society, providing schools, roads, hospitals etc. A check on the idea that the wealthy always get the advantage is that the poor will always outnumber the wealthy. If the poor are too desperate, they will rebel and overthrow government, if the poor are getting a raw deal their numbers outweigh the wealthy and hence they get to choose (by vote) the next government.
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08-04-2017, 01:06 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 07:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  The purpose of government is to protect the individual, and that entails compromise.

Indeed. Compromise is the basis of all negotiations. Classic example being that my right to swing my fist ends at your nose. Society starts when the corollary is also true.

Of course, that's not applicable in anarchy. So... uh... fuck the police?

Yeah, that sounds like progress. Dodgy

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08-04-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Quote:A check on the idea that the wealthy always get the advantage is that the poor will always outnumber the wealthy. If the poor are too desperate, they will rebel and overthrow government, if the poor are getting a raw deal their numbers outweigh the wealthy and hence they get to choose (by vote) the next government.

So far that has never worked.
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08-04-2017, 07:16 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 02:22 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:A check on the idea that the wealthy always get the advantage is that the poor will always outnumber the wealthy. If the poor are too desperate, they will rebel and overthrow government, if the poor are getting a raw deal their numbers outweigh the wealthy and hence they get to choose (by vote) the next government.

So far that has never worked.

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08-04-2017, 07:24 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 02:22 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:A check on the idea that the wealthy always get the advantage is that the poor will always outnumber the wealthy. If the poor are too desperate, they will rebel and overthrow government, if the poor are getting a raw deal their numbers outweigh the wealthy and hence they get to choose (by vote) the next government.

So far that has never worked.

Oh, for fuck sake. Facepalm The French Revolution.

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09-04-2017, 01:12 AM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 07:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  Oh, for fuck sake. Facepalm The French Revolution.

Which led to ... The Terror under Robespierre. I'm pretty sure the hundreds (thousands?) who were guillotined might have wished for a return to the monarchy. No doubt the rest of the population quaking with fear probably did -- but of course couldn't say so.

Once Robespierre was finally done away with, one thing led to another and ... Napoleon Bonaparte and all of Europe is at war, the ramifications stretching all the way to the shores of America.

No, as was stated, it never works.

"If my God exists, then the laws in the Bible should apply to everyone. I am certain my God exists, so ..." -- words of a theocratic fascist justifying theocratic fascism.
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