Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
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10-04-2017, 02:21 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
@Dr H

Your post require more in depth answer but I'm in work now and without laptop and books so I don't really have time or resources to write such.

For what it is worth I don't think that your position is full of shit but I think that you're biassed. However I suspect I could be too.

Want to know more about my position? Then read Maier book mentioned in previous post and maybe check Kołakowski and his "Main currents of Marxism" I think.

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The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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10-04-2017, 04:48 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(09-04-2017 05:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  USA is a unique place. A country where stupid is encouraged and actively grown. It's not unique to your poor, just look at the long list of stupid billionaires and millionaires in office over there. They deny global warming, think vaccination leads to autism, probably don't accept evolution, possibly think creationism is science.
This is religion stupid as opposed to poverty stupid.
Well, to be honest, it's poverty-stupid, as well.

For instance, for 2 years I lived in a very poor neighborhood while doing my undergrad work. Cheap rent, ya know? I was a living goddess in that neighborhood; many there were in awe that I was in college because they assume (incorrectly of course) that you have to be damn near a genius to get in. I was bombarded by people who wanted me to help them get their GEDs.

In some cases, I did help out, and guess what -- the subject these people had the hardest time grasping was history and government. I don't know why. It was as if they had some kind of mental block when it came to these subjects.

Granted, this is only anecdotal, but I imagine if it's true with them, it's true among many other poor people as well. I have no explanation as to why.

Therefore, in the 2 years I was there, including one election year, in all the many and varied conversations I've had with dozens upon dozens upon dozens of disadvantaged people, guess what -- politics never came up once. Not one single time -- well, unless they were complaining about local issues like CPS taking their kids or the courts' often unreasonable child support payments.

I just think most of them are so busy just trying to survive that they just don't see much beyond their own lives. Many didn't have computers including my roommate so they couldn't do any kind of research even if they wanted to.

In addition, not many of them were religious, either. No one I talked to mentioned God or talked about going to church -- not even in passing. No one talked about praying for anyone, not even when one girl, who I was tutoring, lost her mother to an aneurism. I didn't see a lot of religion there, either.

Again, anecdotal, I know, and this was in PA, not the Bible Belt where religion is more prevalent, but the poor seem to lack the education and the background to really be politically active.

Which isn't to say you're completely wrong because, holy shit, yeah, we have A LOT of religious-stupid in this country. So much so that I sometimes feel embarrassed to even admit that I'm American. Sometimes I'll say, "Yeah, I'm an American. But only legally. I wasn't born there. Honest!"

I hate the fact that I worry I'll be branded as just another stupid American.

"If my God exists, then the laws in the Bible should apply to everyone. I am certain my God exists, so ..." -- words of a theocratic fascist justifying theocratic fascism.
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12-04-2017, 03:08 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(07-04-2017 02:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No, don't understand what you are saying.

Are you saying that you need to kill most people so that the population isn't as impacting on the environment?
Um, show me where I said anything about killing anybody?

Quote:Without coordinated government, who is going to take it as their personal responsibility to reduce global population?
Individual human beings need to take on that personal responsibility. If they fail to do so, humanity will eventually go the way of the dodo.

Quote:Who is going to take it as responsibility to provide roads and hospitals and schools etc. People ultimately look after their self interest,
Sometimes self-interest requires things like roads and hospitals, etc.

Quote:most will try to hoard and let others pay, ultimately no-one will pay, you will not have any public schools or roads etc.
What will they be hoarding? If there are no governments, there will be no monetary system.

Quote:The idea that people will just volunter to provide these things is a pipe dream.
Yes, I suppose you're right -- volunteerism is a myth. Rolleyes

"About 62.6 million people volunteered through or for an organization at least
once between September 2014 and September 2015."
Volunteering in the United States

Volunteering and Civic Life in America

That's just the US, of course:

The Countries Where You’ll Find The Most Volunteers

And we need to do a lot better. It's a start, though.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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12-04-2017, 03:12 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(12-04-2017 03:08 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
Quote:The idea that people will just volunter to provide these things is a pipe dream.
Yes, I suppose you're right -- volunteerism is a myth. Rolleyes

"About 62.6 million people volunteered through or for an organization at least
once between September 2014 and September 2015."
Volunteering in the United States

Volunteering and Civic Life in America

That's just the US, of course:

The Countries Where You’ll Find The Most Volunteers

And we need to do a lot better. It's a start, though.

I'm thinking about starting a PAC or non-profit for homeless advocacy. Because they're cheap to start and I can legally pay myself a handsome salary. Big Grin

#sigh
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12-04-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(07-04-2017 04:44 PM)abaris Wrote:  We're still territorial chimps at heart. Sharing, especially out of our group, isn't in our nature.
That may be true now. But I don't happen to believe that evolution has stopped.

Quote:Communism, anarchism - they all asked for something that isn't human. To share and be content with what is voluntarilly shared. Capitalism is more in our nature. There's a natural greed in us.
It could indeed be argued that greed is in our nature.
But not capitalism -- that's as artificial and abstract a system as any other.

And capitalism is predicated on a myth: that perpetual growth is a) possible, and b) a good thing. Perpetual growth is cancer.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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12-04-2017, 03:21 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(07-04-2017 07:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  People can't be trusted to do the right things for the common good; that is why there are laws and government.

Um... and you trust the government to "do the right things for the common good"?

Government which is the source, profiteer, and perpetuator of virtually all large-scale warfare?
Government which hands-off favors to the corporations polluting the environment, spewing greenhouse gases, and doing it through the exploitation of its workers?
Government which enforces its laws on a class-privilege basis (e.g., if you're white and wealthy, you walk; if you're brown or black and poor, you go to prison or die)?

Yeah, somehow I don't see that as the solution . . .

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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12-04-2017, 03:21 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 02:19 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Is that something like Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms?

Big Grin

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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12-04-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 03:27 AM)abaris Wrote:  Show me one socal species that lives in a leaderless environment.
There have been a number of anarchist societies.[1] Arguably, most of them have failed at least partly for the reason many communist experiments failed -- pressure from the outside.

Societies which feel threatened by the possible of success of socialist or anarchist philosophies spare no expense or effort to destroy them before they can grow. That's what drove US foreign policy through most of the 20th century.

And anarchists are a threat to both capitalist and communist societies, so they end up getting it from both sides -- anarchists are everyone's favorite targets.


[1] For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_an...ommunities

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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12-04-2017, 03:38 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 04:11 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I don't know how you get there without absolute global totalitarianism. A paradox, if you will.

Not necessarily a paradox, but certainly a conundrum.

It may well be that education and personal responsibility have to come first, before you can have a successful long-term anarchist society. The problem is that governments, by their very existence, tend to mitigate against both education and personal responsibility.

This is not unlike the argument sometimes advanced by theists, regarding morality -- viz., that one can't have morality unless forced into it by some outside source (e.g., God). Essentially, the claim is being advanced that human beings can't have a civil society unless they are forced into it by a government.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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12-04-2017, 03:40 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(08-04-2017 05:56 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Unless you enact a government to help keep shitty people in check. Drinking Beverage

And who gets to define what constitutes a "shitty person"? The government?

That's worked out so well to date, has it?

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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