Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
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12-04-2017, 05:14 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(12-04-2017 04:43 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 04:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You haven't elaborated on how you get the population reduced. Please elaborate.
Birth control comes to mind.
Well, I am somewhat interested in this idea of anarchism. I can't workout in my mind how it can work, but I am open to learning how it can work.

Answers like what you are giving, don't help at all in trying to understand how it can work.
We have birth control at the moment and yet populations continue to rise.
I have never met a person that has chosen to have 1 or no kids in order to play their part in reducing the global population.
Many Catholics seem to want to have large families, I guess encouraged in their will to have a world dominated by Catholics.

(12-04-2017 04:43 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
Quote:Are you thinking that a contingent of "responsible" people will decide not to have children or will choose to have small numbers of children i.e. 1 in order to reduce the future population of the planet. They will personally do this for the greater good?
Pretty much all people, or at least most of them, are going to have to do this.

If they do not, and if we are unable to mitigate the damage done to the planet and the species through over-population -- as seems likely -- then our species will decline, and perhaps become extinct.
Very, very few people think like this. Those that do, well their ideas die off with them as they are not able to ingrain these ideas into the minds of their children.

(12-04-2017 04:43 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
Quote:Sure, but who is going to pay for it? If others are paying and I can get away with not paying then I am going to choose not to pay.
Such projects would require co-operation and social contracts. If adequate co-operation cannot be obtained, then the projects likely won't get done, and people may have to re-evaluate the needs of their enlightened self-interest.
What is a social contract? How is it enforced?
How do a bunch of people decide who is to build the roads, how do they decide the rules, how do they enforce that?
How is this different to having a government? How do you get around the problems of vigilantes and majority forcing their will on the minorities?

How do you have a thriving society in a global world without a monetary system?
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12-04-2017, 05:55 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(12-04-2017 05:07 PM)abaris Wrote:  Are you aware how old this idea is?
Yes.

Quote:And how little that differs from the ideal of democracy?
It differs considerably from democracy in any form. Democracy subjugates the minority -- which can be up to 49.9+% -- to the majority.

Quote:The ideal of communism even?
Communist is an economic approach, not a governmental approach.

Quote:It doesn't work and can't work however.
As it has never really been tried on a large scale, I can't see that you have a basis for either of those claims.

Quote:I'm flabbergasted that you can't see that in your idealistic bubble or whatever that is supposed to be. If people were just assigned to lead certain projects, there would be no advancement whatsoever. Every research takes time and testing. Without any kind of hierarchy ort temporary hierarchy there would be no research.
I've already pointed out that temporary hierarchies could be constructed, as needed, by social contract.

Quote:Again. The idea was born in the 19th century. It's laughable by todays standards.
The idea of democracy was born in the 5th century BC.
The idea of capitalism was born in the 14th century.

Not sure what the age of an idea has to do with its practical application.


Quote:Sorry, I can't take anyone seriously who still thinks that's even remotely possible. What's next? Utopia by Thomas Morus?
<shrug> You don't have to take me seriously, even though I am serious. I don't insist that everyone agree with my ideas.

But I do think you could stand to learn a little more about the history and philosophy of anarchism, if you want to discuss it intelligently.

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12-04-2017, 06:20 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(12-04-2017 05:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Well, I am somewhat interested in this idea of anarchism. I can't workout in my mind how it can work, but I am open to learning how it can work.

Answers like what you are giving, don't help at all in trying to understand how it can work.
We have birth control at the moment and yet populations continue to rise.
Indeed. People have to take on the personal responsibility to actually use the birth control, you see. Smile

That, in turn, requires that we raise the general level of education, something which most governments are not at all interested in doing, as it creates problems for them.

Quote:I have never met a person that has chosen to have 1 or no kids in order to play their part in reducing the global population.
Many Catholics seem to want to have large families, I guess encouraged in their will to have a world dominated by Catholics.
As an ex-Catholic myself, I would definitely say that Catholics are part of the problem. But then, I'd go further and say that religion is a part of the problem.

Can you imagine a world without religion?

Quote:Very, very few people think like this. Those that do, well their ideas die off with them as they are not able to ingrain these ideas into the minds of their children.
Well then, I guess our species may be doomed.

That may or may not be a good thing, depending on one's point of view, and whether or not there is any other intelligent life in the universe.


Quote:What is a social contract?
A mutual agreement, negotiated among equals, for purposes of achieving a desirable common goal.

Quote:How is it enforced?
Since the goal of the contract is mutually desirable to all parties to the contract, there would be no need of enforcement; enforcement is replaced by cooperation.

Of course, this requires that parties to the contract are acting from a standpoint of enlightened self-interest.

But that shouldn't be impossible to achieve: an earlier poster in the thread suggested that enlightened self-interest was a necessary state for achieving a government that would look out for the individual. The implication is that we have people acting from that basis, right now.


Quote:How do a bunch of people decide who is to build the roads, how do they decide the rules, how do they enforce that?
First off, you have to get the notion of "enforcement" out of your mind. Anarchy is the antithesis of force and coercion. If you are worrying about "enforcement" then you have not achieved the necessary social maturity to act in an anarchist society.

As to how people decide who builds roads, well the people who want roads decide, and then find people with similar goals.


Quote:How is this different to having a government?
A government is a centralized power authority which forces people to do things regardless of whether or not they may want them.

I personally witnessed the federal government force the construction of several miles of highway, obliterating several hundred-year old neighborhoods, and forcing the relocation of several thousand people -- most of whom didn't want to move. Nobody really needed that stretch of road, but it not only got built, it got built at the considerable expense of a lot of people who never wanted it in the first place.

In a social anarchy in would have been necessary to convince all those people that such a road was ultimately in their best interests. In a government dominated society, they were simply told that the road was in their best interests, and whether or not they agreed didn't really matter.


Quote:How do you get around the problems of vigilantes and majority forcing their will on the minorities?
In a society driven by enlightened self-interest, why would anyone want to do that?

Quote:How do you have a thriving society in a global world without a monetary system?
You might not have a global society in the sense in which you're probably thinking of it. Certainly I don't think it's possible with the current world population, because the size of the population pretty much guarantees that there is not enough of what people need to go around.

Past that, labor has always been a valuable commodity, and barter has a long history.

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12-04-2017, 07:10 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(12-04-2017 06:20 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 05:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Well, I am somewhat interested in this idea of anarchism. I can't workout in my mind how it can work, but I am open to learning how it can work.

Answers like what you are giving, don't help at all in trying to understand how it can work.
We have birth control at the moment and yet populations continue to rise.
Indeed. People have to take on the personal responsibility to actually use the birth control, you see. Smile
Very few have a goal of reducing global population. We tend to use contraceptives because we personally don't want to have a baby right now, not with our partner right now.

So, lets say you take this on as your personal responsibility. You don't produce offspring.
Your neighbor doesn't accept this as their personal responsibility and they like babies so they have 12 of them.
Your "responsible" trait dies off with you. Their "irresponsible" trait is passed onto their 12 children, each who have large families of their own. Your self sacrificing gesture is a waste and has no effect on the future of humanity.

(12-04-2017 06:20 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
Quote:I have never met a person that has chosen to have 1 or no kids in order to play their part in reducing the global population.
Many Catholics seem to want to have large families, I guess encouraged in their will to have a world dominated by Catholics.
As an ex-Catholic myself, I would definitely say that Catholics are part of the problem. But then, I'd go further and say that religion is a part of the problem.
Yeah but, we now have a group of people that don't agree with your goals. You guys remain in conflict, unable to agree on a social contract.

(12-04-2017 06:20 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
Quote:Very, very few people think like this. Those that do, well their ideas die off with them as they are not able to ingrain these ideas into the minds of their children.
Well then, I guess our species may be doomed.
Or perhaps it is the idea of anarchy that is doomed.

(12-04-2017 06:20 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
Quote:What is a social contract?
A mutual agreement, negotiated among equals, for purposes of achieving a desirable common goal.

Quote:How is it enforced?
Since the goal of the contract is mutually desirable to all parties to the contract, there would be no need of enforcement; enforcement is replaced by cooperation.
You will never get 100% of the people agreeing on anything.
There will always be people going against your imaginary social contract.

(12-04-2017 06:20 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Of course, this requires that parties to the contract are acting from a standpoint of enlightened self-interest.
Whatever that means. But ultimately it is futile to hope that all people will be enlightened as you hope for. If your system requires this then your system is doomed to failure.

(12-04-2017 06:20 PM)Dr H Wrote:  But that shouldn't be impossible to achieve: an earlier poster in the thread suggested that enlightened self-interest was a necessary state for achieving a government that would look out for the individual. The implication is that we have people acting from that basis, right now.
Right now we do not require all people to be enlightened. We have a police force which will use force to get people to comply to the law.

(12-04-2017 06:20 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
Quote:How do a bunch of people decide who is to build the roads, how do they decide the rules, how do they enforce that?
First off, you have to get the notion of "enforcement" out of your mind. Anarchy is the antithesis of force and coercion. If you are worrying about "enforcement" then you have not achieved the necessary social maturity to act in an anarchist society.
So do you kick me out of your country? Do you assimilate me, kill me, what?
You will have many people disagree with your ideals and perceived social contracts, many people that won't volunteer to keep population down, who won't volunteer for providing public health, schools and roads. There will always be conflicts and competition for resource. If a system relies upon agreement and voluntary conformity then I think the system will struggle.

(12-04-2017 06:20 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
Quote:How do you have a thriving society in a global world without a monetary system?
You might not have a global society in the sense in which you're probably thinking of it. Certainly I don't think it's possible with the current world population, because the size of the population pretty much guarantees that there is not enough of what people need to go around.
Seems that anarchy is a non starter then.
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12-04-2017, 09:21 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(09-04-2017 01:12 AM)Shirina Wrote:  
(08-04-2017 07:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  Oh, for fuck sake. Facepalm The French Revolution.

Which led to ... The Terror under Robespierre. I'm pretty sure the hundreds (thousands?) who were guillotined might have wished for a return to the monarchy. No doubt the rest of the population quaking with fear probably did -- but of course couldn't say so.

Once Robespierre was finally done away with, one thing led to another and ... Napoleon Bonaparte and all of Europe is at war, the ramifications stretching all the way to the shores of America.

No, as was stated, it never works.

France is a republic. It worked.

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12-04-2017, 09:36 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(12-04-2017 04:43 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 04:11 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You haven't elaborated on how you get the population reduced. Please elaborate.
Birth control comes to mind.

Quote:I'm not clear on what you are implying, can you please be specific?
I don't believe I've "implied" anything -- what I meant to say, I said.

Quote:Are you thinking that a contingent of "responsible" people will decide not to have children or will choose to have small numbers of children i.e. 1 in order to reduce the future population of the planet. They will personally do this for the greater good?
Pretty much all people, or at least most of them, are going to have to do this.

Yes, and they'll all do so voluntarily. Facepalm

Quote:If they do not, and if we are unable to mitigate the damage done to the planet and the species through over-population -- as seems likely -- then our species will decline, and perhaps become extinct.

You apparently don;t see your own contradiction there. There is no 'we' to do anything. You and the Libertarians are living in la-la land.

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12-04-2017, 09:42 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(12-04-2017 05:12 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
Quote:It doesn't work and can't work however

Work in what way?

Is our current society "working"?

Have you been murdered?
Has your house been robbed?
Any family members kidnapped?
Do you have roads to drive on?
Do you have food readily available?
Do you have clean water?
Do you have clean air?
Do you have safe, effective medicines?
and so on.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-04-2017, 03:36 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
Hoan Bridge: 2000
(12-04-2017 09:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 05:12 PM)ImFred Wrote:  Work in what way?
Is our current society "working"?

Have you been murdered?
Well, not recently.

OTOH:
Police killed at least 102 unarmed black people in 2015, nearly twice each week.

Young black men again faced highest rate of US police killings in 2016

Quote:Has your house been robbed?
Twice in the past 10 years, and my car broken into once.

Quote:Any family members kidnapped?
Well, no, you've got me there.

But another baby just died because her parents were waiting around for God to heal her, rather than take her to a doctor:
Baby of faith-healing church members died from complications of premature birth

This despite Oregon having removed the "faith-healing exemption" from the law six years ago, in response to a pattern of dozens of child deaths in this same religious sect, for the same reason.

Quote:Do you have roads to drive on?
That I do, if I go slow enough to drive down one side of the potholes and up the other.
Oregon roads, bridges falling apart

Of course, nothing like this has happened ... yet:
Hoan Bridge: 2000


Quote:Do you have food readily available?
Usually. But I'm one of the fortunate ones:
In 2015, 42.2 million Americans lived in food insecure households, including 29.1 million adults and 13.1 million children.

Quote:Do you have clean water?
Sometimes. When the sewers don't overflow into the river above the water plant intakes.

Then, there's this:
How tap water became toxic in Flint, Michigan


Quote:Do you have clean air?
Not long ago I would have answered "yes" to that one, but now, I'm not so sure:
The Worst Air Pollution in the US Is Not Where You Think

Quote:Do you have safe, effective medicines?
Sometimes:
Heart failure induced by non-cardiac drugs.

Some heartburn drugs may boost risk of heart attack, study says.

Two Commonly Prescribed Diabetes Drugs May Cause Heart Failure And Fluid Buildup

2016 FDA Drug Recalls

Quote:and so on.

Indeed. Consider

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13-04-2017, 04:10 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(12-04-2017 07:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Very few have a goal of reducing global population. We tend to use contraceptives because we personally don't want to have a baby right now, not with our partner right now.

So, lets say you take this on as your personal responsibility. You don't produce offspring.
Your neighbor doesn't accept this as their personal responsibility and they like babies so they have 12 of them.
Your "responsible" trait dies off with you. Their "irresponsible" trait is passed onto their 12 children, each who have large families of their own. Your self sacrificing gesture is a waste and has no effect on the future of humanity.
Okay, let's say your right.

Now apply that same reasoning to greenhouse gas production and global warming.

Guess we might as well not do anything about it, because not everyone seems to see the problem, much less any pressing need to do anything about it. Indeed, whole countries have opted to eschew responsibility in this particular case. For every ton of CO2 responsible Americans keep out of the atmosphere by using CFLs and LED bulbs, China puts 14 more tons of CO2 into the atmosphere from the coal-fired power plant they built to run the factory that made our CFLs and LEDs.

Guess humanity is doomed.


Quote:Yeah but, we now have a group of people that don't agree with your goals. You guys remain in conflict, unable to agree on a social contract.
Not everyone enters in to every contract, even now. Why would you expect there to be universal buy-in of every contract, regardless of the government system (or lack thereof)?

Quote:Or perhaps it is the idea of anarchy that is doomed.
Beside the point, really. No humans=no government, no anarchy, no nothin'

Well, nothing human-related, anyway.

Maybe it's time to start an office pool on whether the ants or the roaches are going to be the next dominant species.

Quote:You will never get 100% of the people agreeing on anything.
You don't need 100% for every project.
If me and all my neighbors on the street decide to put in a community rose garden in our neighborhood, it doesn't matter whether some guy in a town 50 miles away hates flowers or is allergic to roses.

Quote:There will always be people going against your imaginary social contract.
And, of course, no one ever stands in opposition to any infrastructure projects under our current system. Tongue

Quote:Whatever that means. But ultimately it is futile to hope that all people will be enlightened as you hope for. If your system requires this then your system is doomed to failure.
<shrug> You think that because you don't understand what "enlightened self interest" means.

Quote:Right now we do not require all people to be enlightened. We have a police force which will use force to get people to comply to the law.
Indeed we do. And it's working famously well.


Quote:So do you kick me out of your country? Do you assimilate me, kill me, what?
I am a practical anarchist. By the time a sufficient portion of humanity is sufficiently educated and socially mature enough to have a successful large-scale anarchist society, you, and I, and all the bytes we have wasted here, will be long gone -- dust in the wind.

So, no worries, bro'. Smile

Quote:Seems that anarchy is a non starter then.

Perhaps. That's what most European monarchs once thought about democracy.

Perhaps they also were correct.

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13-04-2017, 04:15 PM
RE: Anarchy, Communism and Nationalism
(12-04-2017 09:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, and they'll all do so voluntarily. Facepalm
They either will, or evolution will eventually take care of the problem.

Quote:You apparently don;t see your own contradiction there. There is no 'we' to do anything.
Then, I guess you agree with Stevil, and humanity is doomed.

I have to say this is one of the more pessimistic gatherings of atheists that I've encountered.
Here guys, this may be of interest:

“May we live long and die out”

Big Grin

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