Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
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03-01-2014, 11:38 AM
RE: Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
The whole "belief" thing is a red herring and an equivocation fallacy. The word belief has multiple meanings, one of those meanings being akin to the use of the word "faith". That is, belief that something is true without evidence, that will be held against all evidence to the contrary. This is the belief that people have in gods. Atheists reject that use of the word belief; they ain't having it. But they do believe things in the sense of accepting something as a fact, because you fucking have to to function in society, you crazy solipsist.

The same applies to the word "religion" or "religious". Again, it's an equivocation fallacy. There's religion, as in a set of beliefs and practices upheld by faith which usually includes belief in one or more deities and a moral code. And then there's religion, as in having a strong passion for something, like the way I could be called "religious" about craft beer. Atheists can be "religious" about their atheism, but it doesn't make atheism a religion. Conflating the two meanings is simply dishonest.



Now can we stop with the god damn semantics already?

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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03-01-2014, 12:07 PM
RE: Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
(03-01-2014 11:26 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 10:14 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What do you mean?

Just a personal thing. I lend money to friends but I'm not down with creating something from nothing, so I don't charge interest.

Fair enough. Thanks.
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03-01-2014, 12:19 PM
RE: Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
(03-01-2014 11:29 AM)maklelan Wrote:  What categories are not semantics issues?

I can't think of any

(03-01-2014 11:29 AM)maklelan Wrote:  Cute, but remarkably naive and totally inaccurate. Belief in deity is not a defining feature of religion, as much as laypeople tend to just assume it is.

But the "laypeople" is the context in which the majority of the conversation in regards to religion is being held. So at least we must have their definitions in mind and with that definition I'm working with. Belief in a deity is not a defining feature but it's prevalent in world religions. Belief in the supernatural is more of a defining feature in my opinion.

(03-01-2014 11:29 AM)maklelan Wrote:  Can you define the category without appealing to the horrible fallacies of dictionary semantics and Aristotelian principles of categorization? I promise you you cannot (you're welcome to try), and so you are hardly in a position to determine what does not fit the category.

Yes I'm not in a position, but it's disingenuous to use a definition of a word that the "laypeople" don't use and then use the word in a manner that discredits science and reason (both of which could be a religion under your definition)

(03-01-2014 11:29 AM)maklelan Wrote:  What does "loose on the definition of religion" mean? Are you saying defining religion is a subjective endeavor? It's not as binary and empirical as your Maher quote presupposes? What gives?

Yes I am defining it as a subjective endeavor. I don't think Maher is presupposing a binary and empirical endeavor, I would say you're assuming he is.

(03-01-2014 11:29 AM)maklelan Wrote:  Yes. Certainly you acknowledge that politics can be a religion for certain groups of Americans.

Under your definition, yes. Under the common and 'fallacious' dictionary definition, no.
Under your definition almost anything can be a religion as long as it checks having symbols, are powerful, etc and make sense in terms of an idea of a general order of existence.

(03-01-2014 11:29 AM)maklelan Wrote:  So how do you respond to authors like Midgley, Bellah, and Geertz? You've obviously read them or you wouldn't be presuming to speak so authoritatively about the nature of religion and the fallacies of those who study it for a living.

I don't speak authoritatively. I think you missed the words "It's been my experience..."

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03-01-2014, 03:40 PM
RE: Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
(03-01-2014 12:19 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  But the "laypeople" is the context in which the majority of the conversation in regards to religion is being held.

In I would contend that it is in the context of the layperson's conceptualization of science that it is most commonly a religious worldview.

(03-01-2014 12:19 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  So at least we must have their definitions in mind and with that definition I'm working with. Belief in a deity is not a defining feature but it's prevalent in world religions. Belief in the supernatural is more of a defining feature in my opinion.

We can have their conceptualizations in mind, but their categories need not be authoritative. When I say science it sometimes a religion, I'm not talking about the way those people categorize religion or science, I'm talking about they way they conceptualize science and the way sociologists and psychologists describe religious phenomena. This not to be prescriptive about the way they see science, but to acknowledge that they don't get to be prescriptive about the way they categorize religion.

(03-01-2014 12:19 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Yes I'm not in a position, but it's disingenuous to use a definition of a word that the "laypeople" don't use and then use the word in a manner that discredits science and reason (both of which could be a religion under your definition)

To insist it is discrediting science to acknowledge that it can function religiously in the minds of many is to make a negative value judgment about religion and about perfectly natural and normal psychological phenomena. I think that wildly misses the mark.

(03-01-2014 12:19 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Yes I am defining it as a subjective endeavor. I don't think Maher is presupposing a binary and empirical endeavor, I would say you're assuming he is.

Well, he compares atheism:religion to abstinence:sexual positions. Since "abstinence," by definition excludes "sexual position," he is treating the two categories as mutually exclusive, or binary. Thus, according to his comparison, atheism and religion are mutually exclusive (even by definition). This is to treat them as binary and dichotomous.

(03-01-2014 12:19 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Under your definition, yes. Under the common and 'fallacious' dictionary definition, no.

Tell me what the definition of the word "furniture" is and then tell me if aligns with the common usage of the word. If it doesn't tell me why not. The definition of religion I promote actually takes into account the many different phenomena commonly described as religious.

(03-01-2014 12:19 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Under your definition almost anything can be a religion as long as it checks having symbols, are powerful, etc and make sense in terms of an idea of a general order of existence.

Potentially. Categories are not neat little boxes that something is 100% in or out of, however.

(03-01-2014 12:19 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  I don't speak authoritatively. I think you missed the words "It's been my experience..."

Perhaps I did miss what you meant by that. My apologies.

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03-01-2014, 04:15 PM
RE: Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
(03-01-2014 10:42 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 09:04 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Religion

: the belief in a god or in a group of gods

Nah.

: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

Nah.

: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

Nah.
Interest and activity, yes... but not belief.

Science unquestionably incorporates belief, but notice it's an "or," not an "and." It certainly qualifies according to that definition, but if you think Merriam-Webster is an authoritative voice on what religion is, I've got some beachfront property I think you may be interested in. Bellah, paraphrasing Geertz (both leading scholars of the history and psychology of religion), defines religion as, "a system of symbols that, when enacted by human beings, establishes powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations that make sense in terms of an idea of a general order of existence." It's a cultural system. I pointed elsewhere to these scholars (and others like Boyer, Tremlin, and Guthrie), and I suggest reading them to find out how religion should and should not be defined (although to be precise and careful, complex systems like religion can never be adequately defined, they must just be described [and that's paraphrasing Barr]). Midgley's text, Evolution as a Religion, is particularly interesting in that regard.

No, science is not a religion - your definition of religion is over-broad.

Quote:The relationship between religion and science has been a subject of study since Classical antiquity, addressed by philosophers, theologians, scientists, and others. Perspectives from different geographical regions, cultures and historical epochs are diverse, with some characterizing the relationship as one of conflict, others describing it as one of harmony, and others proposing little interaction. The extent to which science and religion may attempt to understand and describe similar phenomena is sometimes referred to as a part of the demarcation problem.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-01-2014, 04:20 PM
RE: Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
(03-01-2014 08:19 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 07:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  On the other hand, there is nothing more to religion than its practices. So, there's that.

A demonstrable falsehood and a non-sequitur. I know you feel everyone should be impressed by your attempts at pithy little quips, but please save them for someone else. Not only does your claim have no bearing whatsoever on the concerns I expressed, but it's simply not true. Religion is conceptualization and worldview, not just a collection of rituals and stories. Science is religion for many, many atheists. Try brushing up on your history, psychology, and evolution of religion scholarship and you should outgrow such reductive and naive mischaracterizations. Perhaps you are more comfortable in your naivety, though; it certainly makes deriding and mocking religion much easier, and that seems to be the emotional masturbation that websites like this exist to facilitate.

Yes, when one is immersed in a religion, it involves a worldview.
My quip was to point out that there is nothing actually real about a religion besides its practices.

If you don't like people mocking religion you're in the wrong place. Shrug it off, grow some balls, or find another site.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-01-2014, 04:22 PM
RE: Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
(03-01-2014 09:37 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 09:04 AM)DLJ Wrote:  : an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

Nah.
Interest and activity, yes... but not belief.

200 internet points awarded to Chas (reluctantly).

Rolleyes

Many schools of philosophy hold that belief is fundamental to knowledge. So fuck Chas. Big Grin

Except 'belief' is used in at least two senses.

One is to hold something as factual and true,
the other is to accept without evidence - as faith.

So fuck off, and keep your paws off my 200 points. Big Grin

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-01-2014, 04:55 PM
RE: Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
(03-01-2014 11:38 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The whole "belief" thing is a red herring and an equivocation fallacy. The word belief has multiple meanings, one of those meanings being akin to the use of the word "faith". That is, belief that something is true without evidence, that will be held against all evidence to the contrary. This is the belief that people have in gods. Atheists reject that use of the word belief; they ain't having it. But they do believe things in the sense of accepting something as a fact, because you fucking have to to function in society, you crazy solipsist.

The same applies to the word "religion" or "religious". Again, it's an equivocation fallacy. There's religion, as in a set of beliefs and practices upheld by faith which usually includes belief in one or more deities and a moral code. And then there's religion, as in having a strong passion for something, like the way I could be called "religious" about craft beer. Atheists can be "religious" about their atheism, but it doesn't make atheism a religion. Conflating the two meanings is simply dishonest.



Now can we stop with the god damn semantics already?

This is why I've missed you. Big Grin


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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03-01-2014, 04:56 PM
RE: Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
(03-01-2014 04:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, science is not a religion - your definition of religion is over-broad.

So all that is needed on this website is a terse, yet authoritative "Nu-uh" to definitively shut down arguments? Coulda fooled me with the way you kept demanding I provide documentation for every little claim I made, self-evident or otherwise.

On the other hand, it's not my definition per se, it's the definition of some of the leading scholars of the sociology and psychology of religion. Care to provide something more substantive than that simple "Nu-uh"?

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03-01-2014, 05:02 PM
RE: Ancient Greek text laying foundations for Calculus -- Erased to make prayer book
(03-01-2014 04:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, when one is immersed in a religion, it involves a worldview.

When one is a human, it involves a worldview.

(03-01-2014 04:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  My quip was to point out that there is nothing actually real about a religion besides its practices.

Also false. The conceptualization of reality that spawns religious outlooks, including certain concepts of science, is a very real and very primeval cognitive faculty.

(03-01-2014 04:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  If you don't like people mocking religion you're in the wrong place.

So this place isn't about knowledge or science, or the "thinking atheist," it's a place to mock and deride religion free from the scornful eye of objectivity, insight, and respect. Gotcha.

(03-01-2014 04:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  Shrug it off, grow some balls, or find another site.

How about you actually defend your accusations instead of just evading arguments and bitching about me being here?

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