And now for something completely different
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28-08-2017, 08:41 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2017 09:12 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: And now for something completely different
(28-08-2017 08:36 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I've been pondering for a while the difference, from a processing perspective, between the cognitive dissonance (events/alerts) and compartmentalism.

He has a good example of the latter when quoting his book relating to a young Earth creationist who uncomprehendingly uses petroleum products.

Quote:embracing paradox made me discover that religion is a neurological disorder for which faith is the only cure.

Yes

Yes.
His background makes him uniquely qualified to speak to the impenetrable lack of logic that obscures understanding of the most fundamentalist strains of faith.
He knows these people intimately.
This might be more to the point for the audience in these here parts.






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28-08-2017, 09:38 AM
RE: And now for something completely different
(28-08-2017 08:09 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  Having watched the video, I'd have to conclude that Schaeffer is an atheist who takes comfort in playing the theist. He enjoys religious ritual as a form of entertainment and, because of his own personal doubts, he embraces ritual as a way of "playing it safe," just in case there really is a god. I find a large degree of intellectual dishonesty, waffling and downright hypocrisy in his views. Consider

You sir, are a better man than I for having watched.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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28-08-2017, 09:39 AM
RE: And now for something completely different
(28-08-2017 08:07 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Wow!
I had no idea!
I had to come to the Atheist board to find this.
Although I've been accused often of being Strident and "the same as fundamentalists" I've never actually met this sort of Atheism before.
Go figure.
I guess I don't feel the need to correct everybody's homework all day all the time.
I've been telling people this version of Atheism is bullshit for years.
I stand corrected.

The objections are unconnected to atheism. It is a matter of English usage and logic in language.

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30-08-2017, 06:58 PM
RE: And now for something completely different
(28-08-2017 07:08 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Not to suggest that I "am an atheist who believes in God" but the speaker is interesting.
Quote:Frank Schaeffer (born August 3, 1952) is an American author, film director, screenwriter, and public speaker. He is the son of the late theologian and author Francis Schaeffer. He became a Hollywood film director and author, writing several internationally acclaimed novels depicting life in a strict evangelical household including Portofino, Zermatt, and Saving Grandma.
As a matter or policy I don't watch videos, certainly not if they're longer than a minute or two. Not enough time in the day.

I have to admit I'm curious about this progeny of the Shaeffers, they were pretty influential toward the liberal end of fundamentalism (or mild fundamentalism if you will -- or evangelicalism prior to about 1980 when it became politicized / taken over by dominionists).

But not THAT curious ;-)
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30-08-2017, 07:14 PM
RE: And now for something completely different
(28-08-2017 08:41 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  His background makes him uniquely qualified to speak to the impenetrable lack of logic that obscures understanding of the most fundamentalist strains of faith.
He knows these people intimately.
This might be more to the point for the audience in these here parts.





Yes, thanks, these are better for brevity.

I liked the Maddow interview, where he unambiguously fingers Christian fundamentalism for the hazard it was and is. In fact, in retrospect this old clip is downright, dare I say, prophetic. The Grit TV clip on the other hand is the all-too-common tiresome "these new atheists are just as strident and dogmatic as the fundamentalists I grew up with". Well, I beg to differ. I grew up with fundamentalists too, and probably slightly to the right of the Shaeffers, and I don't see this imagined equivalence at all. What I see is that Christian fundamentalists can dish it out, but can't take it.

What Shaeffer is actually channeling there is his operant conditioning to always be civil and "make nice" and if you don't have something "nice" to say, don't say it. Always have a genteel conversation, never confront people or make them uncomfortable.* I used to be that way, and have largely fought my way out of it. He ought to, also. Fundamentalist culture is like this because you durst not prompt anyone to think or challenge dogma. It's wrong, and new atheism is right to say, in effect, "enough of this unearned deference and respect, you're going to fucking COMPETE in the marketplace of ideas without your fake dignity and unctuousness to protect you."

That's not to say I like everything that comes out of the mouth of the Four Horsemen. Dawkins for example sometimes makes asshole pronouncements outside his actual area of expertise, and he ought not do that. But that's a critique of Dawkins, not of New Atheism.

* Never make fellow Christians uncomfortable, that is; you're allowed to make those godless bastards squirm all you want.
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31-08-2017, 06:12 AM
RE: And now for something completely different
(28-08-2017 08:40 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  A guy claiming to be an atheist who believes in God is akin to a xtian who says they are not religious..


It's simply a feeble attempt at elitism.


Too bad nobody buys it.....
So he has a personal relationship with atheism?

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31-08-2017, 06:24 AM
RE: And now for something completely different
(31-08-2017 06:12 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 08:40 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  A guy claiming to be an atheist who believes in God is akin to a xtian who says they are not religious..


It's simply a feeble attempt at elitism.


Too bad nobody buys it.....
So he has a personal relationship with atheism?

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It'd be funnier if they said they were nodding acquaintances......

.......................................

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31-08-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: And now for something completely different
(30-08-2017 07:14 PM)mordant Wrote:  What Shaeffer is actually channeling there is his operant conditioning to always be civil and "make nice" and if you don't have something "nice" to say, don't say it. Always have a genteel conversation, never confront people or make them uncomfortable.* I used to be that way, and have largely fought my way out of it. He ought to, also...
* Never make fellow Christians uncomfortable, that is; you're allowed to make those godless bastards squirm all you want.

I am still that way and find myself resisting fighting my way out of it. I know how to make Christians uncomfortable using only the words from their sacred text. I was trained by Lutherans daily for 10 years. But if the hypocrisy displayed by certain politicians continues, I am going to lose that battle and go full Jesus on the money changing monkeys in the temple.

#sigh
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31-08-2017, 01:25 PM
RE: And now for something completely different
I'm sorry I can't hear the video. I'll give it a listen when I can find some earphones.

I am curious to hear what he has in mind. I'm not turned off -actually intrigued- by the ironic approach.

I'm interested in an in depth look at what it is which has made god belief so pervasive for so long. Naturally I'm uninterested in literal gods. But what is it about us which makes that belief such a good fit? I think it goes to the very nature of consciousness as we experience it. We never have access to it all and we are entirely dependent on preconscious filtering. We are nominally in charge of our organisms yet we don't always have access to our depths. It can feel as though some things -insight, inspiration- are gifts, but if so, from where? God is one answer, the totality of our being is another and "I don't know what you're talking about" is still another.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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31-08-2017, 06:17 PM
RE: And now for something completely different
(31-08-2017 01:25 PM)whateverist Wrote:  I'm sorry I can't hear the video. I'll give it a listen when I can find some earphones.

I am curious to hear what he has in mind. I'm not turned off -actually intrigued- by the ironic approach.

I'm interested in an in depth look at what it is which has made god belief so pervasive for so long. Naturally I'm uninterested in literal gods. But what is it about us which makes that belief such a good fit? I think it goes to the very nature of consciousness as we experience it. We never have access to it all and we are entirely dependent on preconscious filtering. We are nominally in charge of our organisms yet we don't always have access to our depths. It can feel as though some things -insight, inspiration- are gifts, but if so, from where? God is one answer, the totality of our being is another and "I don't know what you're talking about" is still another.

and a want of certainty is another.

Yes

(31-08-2017 01:02 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ...
I am going to lose that battle and go full Jesus on the money changing monkeys in the temple.

Where to get tickets?

Drooling

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