And now for the drug war....
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21-12-2012, 10:11 PM
RE: And now for the drug war....
(21-12-2012 09:40 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(21-12-2012 09:32 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  The same reason why gay marriage isn't legal, the same reason why we still put GST on fruit and veg, the same reason we don't tax junk food and fast food heavier, the same reason *insert bunch of other crap here*, because we still live in the 19050's.
So, you've been a time-traveller all along, huh? Consider
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@FZUMedia, in the states prison is big business. It is effectively a new form of slavery.
Did you know all bullet proof vest, military helmets and various military gear is all 100% made in prison to name a few products.

1% of the American population is locked up, more then any other country in the world.
The American prison system is about profit and not about rehabilitation which is what it should be about.
And it's because it's privately run, there is no incentive for prisons to be about rehabilitation because without it you just increase repeat offending.

If prisons were government owned and operated there is far more incentive for a focus on rehabilitation rather then forcing inmates to make shit.

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22-12-2012, 04:14 AM
RE: And now for the drug war....
If the consumption of drugs was legal, and the possession of heroine was a misdemeanor, this would effect the capital punishment debate too. The already poorly constructed argument about the price of keeping prisoners would be rendered totally obsolete.

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22-12-2012, 05:04 AM
RE: And now for the drug war....
(20-12-2012 09:35 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  We it is obvious to most people, and a few discerning house pets, that the war on drugs is an unwinable futile exercise. We can never win a narcotics ban when half of the country wants to get high.

Obviously the legalization of pot is a no brainer. It can and should be done immediately.

Harder drugs like heroin, cocaine, etc. may be a more difficult task.

Should these, or all recreational drugs for that matter, be legalized?
I'd say, legalize pot and see how the other drug usage goes down.

As for the hard drugs like heroin, cocaine... I like how the Count Hans Adam II of Liechtenstein had put it. The state should legalize the drugs...sort of. It's not a perfect solution, but it's better than we have now. The state should contact the producers directly and offer them a good price, better than drug mafia. Considering that a kilo of opium in Afghanistan costs as much as a kilo of flour, it shouldn't be diffcult.
The state should then create a network of centers, in which the heroin and cocaine would be given out for FREE, as a public health service to addicts. The addicts would go to these centers and have a safe and regular access to a top-quality drug, with clean needles and supervisory personnel. The personnel will also educate the addicts on health risks and about recovery programs. There might be even some unpleasant imagery posted on all the walls.
The drug mafia would of course lose their profit and go on to seek it elsewhere. Addicts do not hesitate do anything to get their drug, so going to some center should not be a problem at all. The mafia uses addicts to distribute the drug among the public. If addicts get the drug for free in a center, they won't be motivated to spread anything anywhere.

I suppose the biggest problem would be to keep the centers safe from mafia arsonists.

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22-12-2012, 09:19 AM
RE: And now for the drug war....
(22-12-2012 04:14 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If the consumption of drugs was legal, and the possession of heroine was a misdemeanor, this would effect the capital punishment debate too. The already poorly constructed argument about the price of keeping prisoners would be rendered totally obsolete.
Considering it costs the same or more to execute a prisoner and there is always that slight chance that they are innocent (innocent people have been executed plenty in the past), I'd say that the argument for executing prisoners is already pretty piss poor.

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22-12-2012, 09:24 AM (This post was last modified: 22-12-2012 09:34 AM by FZUMedia.)
RE: And now for the drug war....
(21-12-2012 10:11 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(21-12-2012 09:40 PM)Vosur Wrote:  So, you've been a time-traveller all along, huh? Consider
no... [Image: shiftyeyes.gif]

@FZUMedia, in the states prison is big business. It is effectively a new form of slavery.
Did you know all bullet proof vest, military helmets and various military gear is all 100% made in prison to name a few products.

1% of the American population is locked up, more then any other country in the world.
The American prison system is about profit and not about rehabilitation which is what it should be about.
And it's because it's privately run, there is no incentive for prisons to be about rehabilitation because without it you just increase repeat offending.

If prisons were government owned and operated there is far more incentive for a focus on rehabilitation rather then forcing inmates to make shit.
Why would the government care about unproductive people- if they are not generating any profit? wouldn't they just want to kill them?
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22-12-2012, 10:56 AM
RE: And now for the drug war....
(22-12-2012 09:24 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(21-12-2012 10:11 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  no... [Image: shiftyeyes.gif]

@FZUMedia, in the states prison is big business. It is effectively a new form of slavery.
Did you know all bullet proof vest, military helmets and various military gear is all 100% made in prison to name a few products.

1% of the American population is locked up, more then any other country in the world.
The American prison system is about profit and not about rehabilitation which is what it should be about.
And it's because it's privately run, there is no incentive for prisons to be about rehabilitation because without it you just increase repeat offending.

If prisons were government owned and operated there is far more incentive for a focus on rehabilitation rather then forcing inmates to make shit.
Why would the government care about unproductive people- if they are not generating any profit? wouldn't they just want to kill them?
Do I really need to explain why the government doesn't simply kill criminals? You're a big boy, I'm sure you work that out for yourself.

Prisons are a necessary part of society. They enforce the law which is their for citizen protection as well as incarcerating people that would otherwise be a threat to society.

A very unintellectual approach to punishment is to look at it very black and white, as in you stole that car so you go to jail for XX years. This is very much the approach America has. It doesn't solve anything, in fact it often makes it worst. Petty criminals meet gangs and get evolved in them etc.. in prison.
The approach that should be taken is just a shade of grey. You stole that car, rather then saying go to jail for XX years you need to ask "why did you steal that car?". Then you figure out they dropped out of school got into the wrong crowd etc.. so you incarcerate them for their crime, BUT you teach them a trade, you educate them teach them useful practical skills that they can use once they are out. Part of the issue is that people are coming out of jail with nothing and so they just fall back into the same pasterns and wind up right back in the slammer.

I think the greatest problem is attitude, not attitude of the criminals but attitude of society towards those criminals.
There is always a story, a reason for why they did what they did (some people are just fucked up, lost cause but there are A LOT of "saveable" people). People don't get this, they just see them as scum and are happy to just simply lock them up.

The whole system is just so incredibly flawed. The evidence shows that if you can get them while they're young, when they get caught for minor crimes underage, and you rehabilitate them then, then their chances of re-offending drop dramatically.
The focus is just so far far too much on the end result, that being major crimes and punishing them for it. You gotta get them that first time they get done for crimes, nip it in the bud before it's too late.

And if you wanna talk profits, it's in the governments interests to rehabilitate rather then simply incarcerate these people as it decreases crime, decreases re-peat offending, decreases prison population and increases people with trades and people in the work force. Also I'm sure there is some coalition that results in those peoples kids less likely to be criminals too.

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22-12-2012, 11:03 AM
RE: And now for the drug war....
(22-12-2012 10:56 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(22-12-2012 09:24 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  Why would the government care about unproductive people- if they are not generating any profit? wouldn't they just want to kill them?
Do I really need to explain why the government doesn't simply kill criminals? You're a big boy, I'm sure you work that out for yourself.

Prisons are a necessary part of society. They enforce the law which is their for citizen protection as well as incarcerating people that would otherwise be a threat to society.

A very unintellectual approach to punishment is to look at it very black and white, as in you stole that car so you go to jail for XX years. This is very much the approach America has. It doesn't solve anything, in fact it often makes it worst. Petty criminals meet gangs and get evolved in them etc.. in prison.
The approach that should be taken is just a shade of grey. You stole that car, rather then saying go to jail for XX years you need to ask "why did you steal that car?". Then you figure out they dropped out of school got into the wrong crowd etc.. so you incarcerate them for their crime, BUT you teach them a trade, you educate them teach them useful practical skills that they can use once they are out. Part of the issue is that people are coming out of jail with nothing and so they just fall back into the same pasterns and wind up right back in the slammer.

I think the greatest problem is attitude, not attitude of the criminals but attitude of society towards those criminals.
There is always a story, a reason for why they did what they did (some people are just fucked up, lost cause but there are A LOT of "saveable" people). People don't get this, they just see them as scum and are happy to just simply lock them up.

The whole system is just so incredibly flawed. The evidence shows that if you can get them while they're young, when they get caught for minor crimes underage, and you rehabilitate them then, then their chances of re-offending drop dramatically.
The focus is just so far far too much on the end result, that being major crimes and punishing them for it. You gotta get them that first time they get done for crimes, nip it in the bud before it's too late.

And if you wanna talk profits, it's in the governments interests to rehabilitate rather then simply incarcerate these people as it decreases crime, decreases re-peat offending, decreases prison population and increases people with trades and people in the work force. Also I'm sure there is some coalition that results in those peoples kids less likely to be criminals too.
Yeah I agree with that, I'd rather see prevention than cure in society, but people, especially children are treated so badly in society, it's no surprise that they are screwed in adult life.

That being said, if I am a victim of a burglary, I don't really give a shit about the criminals 'story' only that he/she pays restitution; I must get my money back and a bonus for the trouble caused.

Which brings me back to drugs, by getting yourself intoxicating, I really don't care about that- do what you want. For me, the only crimes were prison is justified is violent crimes like burglary, rape, etc.
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22-12-2012, 11:05 AM
RE: And now for the drug war....
(22-12-2012 09:19 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(22-12-2012 04:14 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If the consumption of drugs was legal, and the possession of heroine was a misdemeanor, this would effect the capital punishment debate too. The already poorly constructed argument about the price of keeping prisoners would be rendered totally obsolete.
Considering it costs the same or more to execute a prisoner and there is always that slight chance that they are innocent (innocent people have been executed plenty in the past), I'd say that the argument for executing prisoners is already pretty piss poor.
But you must look at the bulk of people in prison, and the minute amount of people who are executed every year. The price of keeping current "criminals" in the cells far exceeds the price of killing people. It is an argument that stands, however unevenly. My argument is that the price to imprison a killer would not mean anything if we'd stop throwing in every person found possessing marijuana.

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22-12-2012, 11:13 AM
RE: And now for the drug war....
(22-12-2012 11:03 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(22-12-2012 10:56 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Do I really need to explain why the government doesn't simply kill criminals? You're a big boy, I'm sure you work that out for yourself.

Prisons are a necessary part of society. They enforce the law which is their for citizen protection as well as incarcerating people that would otherwise be a threat to society.

A very unintellectual approach to punishment is to look at it very black and white, as in you stole that car so you go to jail for XX years. This is very much the approach America has. It doesn't solve anything, in fact it often makes it worst. Petty criminals meet gangs and get evolved in them etc.. in prison.
The approach that should be taken is just a shade of grey. You stole that car, rather then saying go to jail for XX years you need to ask "why did you steal that car?". Then you figure out they dropped out of school got into the wrong crowd etc.. so you incarcerate them for their crime, BUT you teach them a trade, you educate them teach them useful practical skills that they can use once they are out. Part of the issue is that people are coming out of jail with nothing and so they just fall back into the same pasterns and wind up right back in the slammer.

I think the greatest problem is attitude, not attitude of the criminals but attitude of society towards those criminals.
There is always a story, a reason for why they did what they did (some people are just fucked up, lost cause but there are A LOT of "saveable" people). People don't get this, they just see them as scum and are happy to just simply lock them up.

The whole system is just so incredibly flawed. The evidence shows that if you can get them while they're young, when they get caught for minor crimes underage, and you rehabilitate them then, then their chances of re-offending drop dramatically.
The focus is just so far far too much on the end result, that being major crimes and punishing them for it. You gotta get them that first time they get done for crimes, nip it in the bud before it's too late.

And if you wanna talk profits, it's in the governments interests to rehabilitate rather then simply incarcerate these people as it decreases crime, decreases re-peat offending, decreases prison population and increases people with trades and people in the work force. Also I'm sure there is some coalition that results in those peoples kids less likely to be criminals too.
Yeah I agree with that, I'd rather see prevention than cure in society, but people, especially children are treated so badly in society, it's no surprise that they are screwed in adult life.

That being said, if I am a victim of a burglary, I don't really give a shit about the criminals 'story' only that he/she pays restitution; I must get my money back and a bonus for the trouble caused.

Which brings me back to drugs, by getting yourself intoxicating, I really don't care about that- do what you want. For me, the only crimes were prison is justified is violent crimes like burglary, rape, etc.
Oh I see what you mean.
Interesting point actually.

But what about suppliers?

Quote:But you must look at the bulk of people in prison, and the minute amount
of people who are executed every year. The price of keeping current
"criminals" in the cells far exceeds the price of killing people. It is
an argument that stands, however unevenly. My argument is that the price
to imprison a killer would not mean anything if we'd stop throwing in
every person found possessing marijuana.

I'll have to look up the stats but I am certain that it costs the same if not more to kill a prisoners then to keep them in for life. Simply because the court process for someone to be executed is very long and drawn out, where as life in prison is one court hearing sort of thing and that's it.

But yeah absolutely about the weed. You'll have no objections here, it's a strain on resources to keep that shit illegal.

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22-12-2012, 11:59 AM
RE: And now for the drug war....
(22-12-2012 11:13 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(22-12-2012 11:03 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  Yeah I agree with that, I'd rather see prevention than cure in society, but people, especially children are treated so badly in society, it's no surprise that they are screwed in adult life.

That being said, if I am a victim of a burglary, I don't really give a shit about the criminals 'story' only that he/she pays restitution; I must get my money back and a bonus for the trouble caused.

Which brings me back to drugs, by getting yourself intoxicating, I really don't care about that- do what you want. For me, the only crimes were prison is justified is violent crimes like burglary, rape, etc.
Oh I see what you mean.
Interesting point actually.

But what about suppliers?

Quote:But you must look at the bulk of people in prison, and the minute amount
of people who are executed every year. The price of keeping current
"criminals" in the cells far exceeds the price of killing people. It is
an argument that stands, however unevenly. My argument is that the price
to imprison a killer would not mean anything if we'd stop throwing in
every person found possessing marijuana.

I'll have to look up the stats but I am certain that it costs the same if not more to kill a prisoners then to keep them in for life. Simply because the court process for someone to be executed is very long and drawn out, where as life in prison is one court hearing sort of thing and that's it.

But yeah absolutely about the weed. You'll have no objections here, it's a strain on resources to keep that shit illegal.
What do you think? If I sell cocaine am I committing any violence by catering to what the customer wants? The customers voluntary choose to take up drugs- same as those that sell other harmful products, like fast food, tabacco, etc.

As long as information about the substance in question is easily accessible, I don't see the harm. I can vividly remember in school when I was a little kid, one of the teachers was giving lesson on drugs. She spoke about the long term effects, positives, negatives, etc - she said "There's no point saying 'they're bad' since if you are going to do drugs, you will do them anyway. I can however give you information about them so you can make your own decision" This was one of the few instances were I was impressed by public school.
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