And now that Trump's investments are threatened...
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05-11-2016, 09:12 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
The outside.

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06-11-2016, 12:54 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2016 01:05 AM by Praying Birds.)
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
In my opinion those indian people have as well a right to live at a place they chose in a way they decide for themselves (without hurting others peoples rights etc. etc.). Of course the best thing is to agree with other people owning the territory or living nearby on certain rules empowering a peaceful environment in which everybody can exist. And as I've heard there has been some kind of such agreement.

I am never going to say that irredentism is a rightful way to re-claim terretories once part of a certain nation or group of people as we'll have to accept the course of history and make the best of the current situation, preferably with an all-sided agreement. Those people want to live there? Fine! Other people want to settle on this land as well? Fine! Why not find a way to ensure everybodys needs in a way everybody gets most out of it by just respecting each others different beliefs and views on the world, accepting their needs as a basic human right to be fulfilled (without hurting others peoples rights etc. etc.) and being open to compromises. Peaceful discussion is where western civilization has arisen from to a big extent and it is always a good starting point in fulfilling the needs of all the people out there.
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06-11-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
I've not come to a conclusion yet, but they're a people who have been historically fucked over, and not only that but relatively recently fucked over, so I completely understand their reaction.
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05-12-2016, 02:42 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
9 And the Lord Obama said unto DAPL, Where is the first American, thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the water.

11 And now art thou cursed from the river, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

12 When thou drillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

13 And DAPL said unto the Lord Obama, "You'll be hearing from my lawyers about this!.

Big Grin

Grats to the US Veterans for supporting the law and their pledge to "defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

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05-12-2016, 02:52 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
The Indians DID fight for their lands.

They lost.

.....

Like Hillary's supporters -- they need to get over it.

....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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05-12-2016, 08:20 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
My gut feeling is to be on the side of the Indians. Back when "they lost" (as olb puts it), the US government herded them onto the shittiest good-for-nothing land there was and said "This is where you're going to live." Now they're saying "Well, you can't have that land either." This doesn't seem right.

On the other hand, this project has been going for years, and my understanding is that the Indians were consulted and didn't have a problem -- until the last minute, when they suddenly decided to protest. That doesn't seem right either.

Like just about everything else in the world, this is more complicated than it first appears to be.
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05-12-2016, 09:29 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
(05-12-2016 08:20 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  My gut feeling is to be on the side of the Indians. Back when "they lost" (as olb puts it), the US government herded them onto the shittiest good-for-nothing land there was and said "This is where you're going to live." Now they're saying "Well, you can't have that land either." This doesn't seem right.
...

My reading of it is that they won ... kinda.

The US forces were depleted following the Civil War 1861 to 1865 and didn't have the resources to fight the Sioux, the Lakota and Dakota tribes which led to the Treaty of Fort Laramie / the Sioux Treaty of 1868.

Quote: "the country north of the North Platte River and east of the summits of the Big Horn Mountains shall be held and considered to be unceded Indian territory,[...] no white person or persons shall be permitted to settle upon or occupy any portion of the same; or without the consent of the Indians first had and obtained, to pass through the same."

Which means that a "reservation" is from the victor's perspective i.e. "this table is reserved - fuck off!" and not "we've reserved the table next to the toilet for you."

Later the US fucked up at Little Big Horn during the Great Sioux War of 1876 so I'm not quite sure where OLB is getting his perspective from.

I suspect that in his dreams he's a Pinkerton agent or something.

And it's strange to me because I imagine him as someone who would have an affinity with people who want to roam free, riding/biking across the plains with the wind in his hair without some stinkin' big gubment telling him what he can or cannot do.

Consider

(05-12-2016 08:20 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  ...
On the other hand, this project has been going for years, and my understanding is that the Indians were consulted and didn't have a problem -- until the last minute, when they suddenly decided to protest. That doesn't seem right either.

Like just about everything else in the world, this is more complicated than it first appears to be.

I agree that there are complications as with anything where grievances go back 100s of years.

E.g. you know that gold watch of yours that your grandfather gave your father? Well your grandfather bought it in all innocence from someone who stole it from my grandfather and I want it back!

Sort that one out!

Blink

But my instinct is to distrust anything coming from the mouth of (or the office of) a multi-billionaire e.g. election promises and "they were consulted".

As far as I can tell, the native Americans objected from the get go.

Quote:In September 2014, the Dakota Pipeline, LLC held an initial informational meeting with the Standing Rock Sioux Tribal Council. Prior to the presentation, Dave Archambault II indicated the tribe's opposition to any pipeline within treaty boundaries encompassing "North Dakota, Montana, Wyoming and South Dakota."

Tribal opposition

Quote:According to the statement by Alvaro Pop Ac, Chair of the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, “the project was proposed and planned without any consultation with the Standing Rock Sioux or others that will be affected by this major project.”
According to the U.S. Army Corps data there had been 389 meetings with more than 55 tribes, including nine meetings with The Standing Rock Sioux Tribe.

It says there were meetings. But it says nothing about "didn't have a problem".

Unsure

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05-12-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?



Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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05-12-2016, 09:58 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
Good information, DLJ. I will have to read up on this and get a more complete perspective. I forget where I read that the Indians didn't have a problem until recently. I will have to dig up that source and see how trustworthy it is.

As for who won and/or lost back in the 19th century, that too is complicated. Certainly the Indians scored some victories (Little Big Horn being the most celebrated), but in the end they were soundly defeated and herded onto reservations, generally consisting of land that nobody wanted. Treaties had been signed earlier that were pretty generous to the Indians, but those treaties were violated whenever it was convenient for the US government. For example, the Indians were originally granted all of the Black Hills. But then gold was discovered there, and that was the end of that. The reservation in that area is now confined to "the badlands", which are aptly named. The terrain is pretty enough to have been made into a National Park, but it's impossible to make a living there, and the Pine Ridge Reservation is poorer than many third-world countries. I've never been to the North Dakota badlands, but I would imagine they are much the same as the ones that I've visited numerous times in South Dakota.
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05-12-2016, 09:59 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
Thanks Unfogged. My kind of music!
Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie
check out these lyrics
Guthrie rented from Trump's father in the 50's


I ain't got no home, I'm just a-roamin' 'round,
Just a wandrin' worker, I go from town to town.
And the police make it hard wherever I may go
And I ain't got no home in this world anymore.

My brothers and my sisters are stranded on this road,
A hot and dusty road that a million feet have trod;
Rich man took my home and drove me from my door
And I ain't got no home in this world anymore.

Was a-farmin' on the shares, and always I was poor;
My crops I lay into the banker's store.
My wife took down and died upon the cabin floor,
And I ain't got no home in this world anymore.

I mined in your mines and I gathered in your corn
I been working, mister, since the day I was born
Now I worry all the time like I never did before
'Cause I ain't got no home in this world anymore

Beach Haven ain’t my home!
I just can’t pay this rent!
My money’s down the drain!
And my soul is badly bent!
Beach Haven looks like heaven
Where no black ones come to roam!
No, no, no! Old Man Trump!
Old Beach Haven ain’t my home!
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