And now that Trump's investments are threatened...
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05-12-2016, 10:31 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
(05-12-2016 09:58 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Good information, DLJ. I will have to read up on this and get a more complete perspective. I forget where I read that the Indians didn't have a problem until recently. I will have to dig up that source and see how trustworthy it is.
...

Thanks. I'd be interested to know too.

(05-12-2016 09:58 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  ...
As for who won and/or lost back in the 19th century, that too is complicated. Certainly the Indians scored some victories (Little Big Horn being the most celebrated), but in the end they were soundly defeated and herded onto reservations, generally consisting of land that nobody wanted. Treaties had been signed earlier that were pretty generous to the Indians, but those treaties were violated whenever it was convenient for the US government. For example, the Indians were originally granted all of the Black Hills. But then gold was discovered there, and that was the end of that. The reservation in that area is now confined to "the badlands", which are aptly named. The terrain is pretty enough to have been made into a National Park, but it's impossible to make a living there, and the Pine Ridge Reservation is poorer than many third-world countries. I've never been to the North Dakota badlands, but I would imagine they are much the same as the ones that I've visited numerous times in South Dakota.

Indeed.

So the argument about territories and such seems to be around whether the land was stolen for the first, second or third time.

Well, hello?!?!? No

Anyway, I have a feeling that Obama's motivation for pulling the plug this time might have been more about fucking with Trump than from any sense of justice or ideology.

I'm cool with that. Laugh out load

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05-12-2016, 10:38 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
The numbers don't lie.

"Thus, according to Ward Churchill, a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Colorado, the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900 represents a "vast genocide ".

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/7302

By any standard -- that's having your ass seriously handed to you.....

The only reason "The Great White Father" signed any *treaties was to avoid having to commit total genocide as a "solution to the problem"....

* (none of which are constitutional, as they're in violation of Article I, section 9 (8) of the US Constitution --- in that granting rights to a class of people by virtue of their lineage, is the very definition of a "Title of Nobility." --- I'm waiting for the casino owners in Los Vegas, Reno, and Atlantic City to catch on to this -- and shut down every "indian casino"..... )

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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05-12-2016, 10:40 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
On the side of free clean water and clean energy.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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05-12-2016, 10:47 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
(05-12-2016 10:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  On the side of free clean water and clean energy.


Like there's really a whole lot of people in favor of drinking polluted stuff.....

Laughat

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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05-12-2016, 10:55 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
(05-12-2016 10:47 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(05-12-2016 10:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  On the side of free clean water and clean energy.


Like there's really a whole lot of people in favor of drinking polluted stuff.....

Laughat

Apparently a lot of people want to risk it.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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05-12-2016, 10:59 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
(05-12-2016 10:38 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  The numbers don't lie.

"Thus, according to Ward Churchill, a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Colorado, the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900 represents a "vast genocide ".

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/7302

By any standard -- that's having your ass seriously handed to you.....

The only reason "The Great White Father" signed any *treaties was to avoid having to commit total genocide as a "solution to the problem"....

* (none of which are constitutional, as they're in violation of Article I, section 9 (8) of the US Constitution --- in that granting rights to a class of people by virtue of their lineage, is the very definition of a "Title of Nobility." --- I'm waiting for the casino owners in Los Vegas, Reno, and Atlantic City to catch on to this -- and shut down every "indian casino"..... )

Another 'might makes right' argument.

And whose constitution is that? Ah yes, the invading forces.

Which means, I suppose, that Sharia would be OK if muslims ever reached a majority over the christians.

So, I'm curious... whose side were you on in Avatar? White supremacists or the blue skins?

Cain or Abel?

I'd have taken you a pastoral-ist rather than an arable-ist - for someone who wouldn't respect arbitary borders and would bemoan the urbanisation of the wilderness.

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05-12-2016, 11:03 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
(05-12-2016 10:55 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(05-12-2016 10:47 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Like there's really a whole lot of people in favor of drinking polluted stuff.....

Laughat

Apparently a lot of people want to risk it.

yes indeed. They are proposing risking it all in the Puget Sound. 7 times the number of tankers, and the inevitable spill that would put a permanent ring around the tub here, so to speak. The heavy crude they want to haul out of here will sink, and the toll would be tremendous. They have no proposed way to clean it up *WHEN* it happens.
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05-12-2016, 11:07 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
(05-12-2016 10:31 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-12-2016 09:58 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Good information, DLJ. I will have to read up on this and get a more complete perspective. I forget where I read that the Indians didn't have a problem until recently. I will have to dig up that source and see how trustworthy it is.
...

Thanks. I'd be interested to know too.

It appears that I got it from here:

(01-11-2016 11:25 PM)yakherder Wrote:  The process that lead to the pipeline plan coming to fruition was not inherently unfair. Standing Rock fucked up from the beginning by having incompetent representation early on when decisions were being made, contracts had not yet been drawn up, investments and equipment not yet in place, etc. This is far from an isolated issue. The reservation system is a failed concept that essentially leads to 3rd world communities with representation that doesn't seem to give a shit. Crappy situation, but there was no scam here. The company did exactly what it was supposed to do, and now the government is obligated to enforce the law. Not doing so would set a dangerous precedent that has the potential to undermine much of what society is dependent on in this resource and rules dependent world.

So you can blame yakherder!

Tongue

I generally trust yakherder, but he doesn't give sources, so I don't really know how good his info is in this case. I think I've also read the same sort of thing in conservative media (magazines I've been buying lately), but I don't have those with me. I'll try to dig them up when I get home tonight.

I suspect that fault can be found on all sides (tribal leadership, energy companies, US government). I guess for the time being, I still tend to side with the Indians -- while admitting that the arguments of yakherder and onlinebiker do have their merits...
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05-12-2016, 11:17 AM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
I don't know all the facts, nor have I really followed this whole thing, but my cousin, (a Civil Engineer in Minnesota) says eventually a VAST corruption of public officials and entities will come out concerning the pipelines now in progress, one in MN and the one in question. Enbridge (one of the stake-holders) has been "buying" public officials, school boards (? for what ?), city councils etc etc to get their shit built in MN. Go figure.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-12-2016, 12:29 PM
RE: Whose Side Were You On?
(05-12-2016 10:59 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-12-2016 10:38 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  The numbers don't lie.

"Thus, according to Ward Churchill, a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Colorado, the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900 represents a "vast genocide ".

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/7302

By any standard -- that's having your ass seriously handed to you.....

The only reason "The Great White Father" signed any *treaties was to avoid having to commit total genocide as a "solution to the problem"....

* (none of which are constitutional, as they're in violation of Article I, section 9 (8) of the US Constitution --- in that granting rights to a class of people by virtue of their lineage, is the very definition of a "Title of Nobility." --- I'm waiting for the casino owners in Los Vegas, Reno, and Atlantic City to catch on to this -- and shut down every "indian casino"..... )

Another 'might makes right' argument.

And whose constitution is that? Ah yes, the invading forces.

Which means, I suppose, that Sharia would be OK if muslims ever reached a majority over the christians.

So, I'm curious... whose side were you on in Avatar? White supremacists or the blue skins?

Cain or Abel?

I'd have taken you a pastoral-ist rather than an arable-ist - for someone who wouldn't respect arbitary borders and would bemoan the urbanisation of the wilderness.

Just like "Avatar" -- I'm on the side of reality......

The reality --- is every slave ever owned and every Indian who had his land taken away -- is long dead -- and they were wronged by people who also are long dead.

I am in no way responsible for anyone's ancestor's misfortunes - and anyone who says any group now living is -- is probably basing that on nothing more than simple racism ---- "Whitey owes the black (red) man"......

The past is the past.

Racism will continue, as long as some groups think they're "owed" -- just because they were born a certain color.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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