And then there was Kushner
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26-05-2017, 08:24 PM
RE: And then there was Kushner
(26-05-2017 08:13 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-05-2017 08:05 PM)Dom Wrote:  There is zero evidence that has been released to the public.

Yes, America sucks and is now heading for an actual plutocracy dominated by white, old, rich men.

But at least up to now we were able the get the bastards out of office as in Nixon, and vote in good people like Obama.

If voting doesn't work anymore, this world will suck so bad I may not want to be a part of it anymore.

I know it will take time for all the committees to get to the bottom of this, it took a looooong time with Nixon. But we will get there. Then we will know. Now we don't.

I am happy to buy some Stolichnaya - but first I need to know if Trump is a puppet or not.

In which case, we have reached agreement.

Thumbsup

But wouldn't you also like to see more than just the ability to vote out the wrong-doers? Wouldn't you also like to see members of the last two administrations being investigated for war-crimes?

Yes

By whom?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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26-05-2017, 08:49 PM
RE: And then there was Kushner
(26-05-2017 08:24 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(26-05-2017 08:13 PM)DLJ Wrote:  In which case, we have reached agreement.

Thumbsup

But wouldn't you also like to see more than just the ability to vote out the wrong-doers? Wouldn't you also like to see members of the last two administrations being investigated for war-crimes?

Yes

By whom?

I dunno. By the appropriate internal and/or external investigative body.

Unsure

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26-05-2017, 09:02 PM
RE: And then there was Kushner
(26-05-2017 08:49 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-05-2017 08:24 PM)Dom Wrote:  By whom?

I dunno. By the appropriate internal and/or external investigative body.

Unsure

You probably should have this conversation with an American. As European, I would like the UN to conduct lots of inquiries of that sort. Unfortunately the UN just doesn't have any power...

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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26-05-2017, 09:08 PM
RE: And then there was Kushner
Anyway, the reason I made this post is what all is coming out regarding Kushner. There will be a lot more of that. So the thread will grow as time goes. I'm trying to organize these posts so there are a handful of topics one can keep adding to. That both limits the number of posts cluttering up the first page, and it allows looking things up easily.

Apparently Kushner asked the Russians to establish a secure backchannel - one that cannot be seen by US agencies. Keyword here still is "apparently".

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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26-05-2017, 09:08 PM
RE: And then there was Kushner
(26-05-2017 08:49 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-05-2017 08:24 PM)Dom Wrote:  By whom?

I dunno. By the appropriate internal and/or external investigative body.

Unsure

Which is whom? I agree with you that war crimes were committed, but what administration or regime in the last two thousand years hasn't done it once or twice? It's not anything new.

I'm not dismissing it by any means, but I think our efforts are better served by looking to change the future rather than dragging the past into the present. Let's use past experiences as examples of what ought not to be, rather than what is. We can't save those lives, but we can save those still alive by recognizing mistakes, and taking measures to not repeat them.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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26-05-2017, 09:10 PM
RE: And then there was Kushner
(26-05-2017 07:10 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Many say that the Washington Post is fake news.

This only shows they have no news. Only olds.

Has anyone come up with a reason why Russia is still considered an enemy rather than just another plutocracy with whom to do business?

I'm of the opinion (and so were the framers of the constitution, that a free press is necessary for the sustenance of the last shred of democracy that remains.
Russian jounalists are poisoned and killed. In the U.S. the president and others have ginned up low information nationalists into believing that "the media" is the enemy while at the same time cozying up to Russia.
Why should a top advisor to the president want to use a Russian diplomatic facility for secret meetings? Why should I be okay with that?

The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. (G.B.Shaw)
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26-05-2017, 09:27 PM
RE: And then there was Kushner
(26-05-2017 09:10 PM)Vivian Darkbloom Wrote:  
(26-05-2017 07:10 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Many say that the Washington Post is fake news.

This only shows they have no news. Only olds.

Has anyone come up with a reason why Russia is still considered an enemy rather than just another plutocracy with whom to do business?

I'm of the opinion (and so were the framers of the constitution, that a free press is necessary for the sustenance of the last shred of democracy that remains.
Russian jounalists are poisoned and killed. In the U.S. the president and others have ginned up low information nationalists into believing that "the media" is the enemy while at the same time cozying up to Russia.
Why should a top advisor to the president want to use a Russian diplomatic facility for secret meetings? Why should I be okay with that?

Trump Inc. repeatedly broke the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. The Russians knew that, and had the details. They wanted the oil sanctions lifted, as 100 billion dollars was at stake. Trump as President could do that. It's really not that hard to figure out.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-05-2017, 09:58 PM
RE: And then there was Kushner
(26-05-2017 09:08 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(26-05-2017 08:49 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I dunno. By the appropriate internal and/or external investigative body.

Unsure

Which is whom? I agree with you that war crimes were committed, but what administration or regime in the last two thousand years hasn't done it once or twice? It's not anything new.

Which is kinda my underlying point (or one of them).

Either we:
a) accept that this is inevitable - and therefore we have e.g. Obama 'forgiving' Bush/Cheney etc. - and also accept that external regimes will do the same or
b) we don't and we investigate wrong-doing (or suspected wrong-doing) retrospectively when it surfaces or
c) design governance systems that have active on-going accountability by which to surface these things as they happen.

(26-05-2017 09:08 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  ...
I'm not dismissing it by any means, but I think our efforts are better served by looking to change the future rather than dragging the past into the present. Let's use past experiences as examples of what ought not to be, rather than what is. We can't save those lives, but we can save those still alive by recognizing mistakes, and taking measures to not repeat them.


Indeed.

Good governance mechanism, whether for project management or continual service improvement or compliance or whatever, contain an element of lessons learned / review / audit.

All these require some element of "dragging the past into the present".

There are various ways to change behaviour...enforcing accountability, improving transparency, reviewing policy, procedural hoops, financial penalties and incentives (smiting by gods?).

I don't see why trials for war-crimes or financial crimes (like Wall Street's abuse of power in 2008) should not be in the mix.

(26-05-2017 09:10 PM)Vivian Darkbloom Wrote:  
(26-05-2017 07:10 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Many say that the Washington Post is fake news.

This only shows they have no news. Only olds.

Has anyone come up with a reason why Russia is still considered an enemy rather than just another plutocracy with whom to do business?

I'm of the opinion (and so were the framers of the constitution, that a free press is necessary for the sustenance of the last shred of democracy that remains.
Russian journalists are poisoned and killed. In the U.S. the president and others have ginned up low information nationalists into believing that "the media" is the enemy while at the same time cozying up to Russia.
Why should a top adviser to the president want to use a Russian diplomatic facility for secret meetings? Why should I be okay with that?

No one said you should be.

I'm simply questioning what's different now? And what's wrong with cozying to Russia (or China or France or Saudi Arabia or anyone with whom one is not at war)?
That's a rhetorical question, btw.

The US media have brought this upon themselves via commercialism and corporatism... aided and abetted by deregulation (by Clinton, iirc).

Which is why we are beginning to see the democratisation of journalism in social media. So all is not lost.

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27-05-2017, 01:25 AM
RE: And then there was Kushner
(26-05-2017 09:58 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I don't see why trials for war-crimes or financial crimes (like Wall Street's abuse of power in 2008) should not be in the mix.

Because we know that the powers that be won't let that shit happen. It feels like the only way to learn a lesson these days is the hard way.

The wall street abuse of powers is just America now....

Fuck.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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27-05-2017, 02:25 AM
RE: And then there was Kushner
(26-05-2017 09:08 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Which is whom? I agree with you that war crimes were committed, but what administration or regime in the last two thousand years hasn't done it once or twice? It's not anything new.

There is an actual body doing just that with other leaders. The court at the Hague. The one the US never participated in - with good reason, as it seems.

There's also the statute of the Nuremberg tribunal, which is still in effect, since it has never been revoked or abolished. Justice Jackson made clear in his opening speech, what he wanted the trial to establish.

Quote:This Tribunal, while it is novel and experimental, is not the product of abstract speculations nor is it created to vindicate legalistic theories. This inquest represents the practical effort of four of the most mighty of nations, with the support of 17 more, to utilize international law to meet the greatest menace of our times-aggressive war. The common sense of mankind demands that law shall not stop with the punishment of petty crimes by little people. It must also reach men who possess themselves of great power and make deliberate and concerted use of it to set in motion evils which. leave no home in the world untouched. It is a cause of that magnitude that the United Nations will lay before Your Honors.

https://www.roberthjackson.org/speech-an...-tribunal/

He not only wanted to put the Nazis to trial, he also wanted to outlaw aggressive war entirely. I guess, for some time now, you can hear a swishing sound at his gravesite. That's him rotating in it.

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