Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
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27-07-2011, 07:01 AM
RE: Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
On the video game front, I'm not so interested in the video games cause violence argument. That's a PMRC argument and not worth my time. What I do find interesting is how a fictional and virtual experience can, over years, warp and or invade people's perception of reality. Life, for certain, is not a video game; however, the line seems to get blurred and I find that at the same time fascinating and saddening.

As for using video games, it's a fact that the US Army has used Doom as a virtual training aid to teach soldiers three-dimensional battlefield awareness. The US Army also has a video game that is used as a recruiting tool.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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27-07-2011, 09:39 AM
RE: Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
(27-07-2011 07:01 AM)Ghost Wrote:  What I do find interesting is how a fictional and virtual experience can, over years, warp and or invade people's perception of reality.

Sort of like religion? Big Grin

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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27-07-2011, 12:58 PM
RE: Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
(27-07-2011 07:01 AM)Ghost Wrote:  On the video game front, I'm not so interested in the video games cause violence argument. That's a PMRC argument and not worth my time. What I do find interesting is how a fictional and virtual experience can, over years, warp and or invade people's perception of reality. Life, for certain, is not a video game; however, the line seems to get blurred and I find that at the same time fascinating and saddening.

As for using video games, it's a fact that the US Army has used Doom as a virtual training aid to teach soldiers three-dimensional battlefield awareness. The US Army also has a video game that is used as a recruiting tool.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

True , but most gamers and video game developers find the fact that games are used as recruitment tools an abomination.

There has been research done (i'll provide a link later) that proves that FPS games stimulate the very same centers in the brain that are responsible for violent behavior. But still , morality is determined by ones actions , not one's thoughts.
Video games are just fantasy. If you have trouble distinguishing them from reality , it's your fault. The same is true for all fantasy. Seek medical help.
That's just like saying some drunk people drive and kill people so we should ban alcohol for everybody.
(Just to be clear I'm not accusing you Ghost , I'm just saying my thoughts on the argument)

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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27-07-2011, 05:14 PM
RE: Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
I'll agree with Gag. A lunatic is a lunatic whether they're playing Black Ops or not.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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28-07-2011, 07:52 AM
RE: Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
Hey, Galgamesh.

If that's true, then who designed the video game?

I agree that people need to be held responsible for their actions, but I stop short at saying "fault". If someone is unable to differentiate fantasy from reality, then it's hardly their "fault". The sick need help.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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28-07-2011, 10:08 AM
RE: Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
(28-07-2011 07:52 AM)Ghost Wrote:  If someone is unable to differentiate fantasy from reality, then it's hardly their "fault". The sick need help.

This is one of those statements that leave me scratching my head. By reality I am assuming you mean the "average" experiences that people have day to day? But surly we all live in some form of hyperreality. Some people think they will always be able to drive a 6,000 pound SUV and water their lawns 3 times a day till the end of time. Consumerism has got to be the largest and most corrosive part of the American hyperreality we all live in. If video games create a hyperreality then they are no more to blame than a book, TV, Blogs, movies, commercials.. etc etc.. If this is true then aren't we all "sick"? If all these things form the hyperreality we live in, and our ations are based on that hyperreality, then should not some form a fault be attached to the items creating that hyperreality?

The major problem I have is the singling out of one item to place blame. Hyperrealities are complex.. actions based on them can not be distilled down to one influence. People attempting to attach blame to one influence are vastly oversimplifying. The Norway killer is a great example... certainly it is easy to point at whatever part of him you do not like and say that it was that part that caused him to do what he did. And I am sure that whatever part you are point at has "some" blame to carry... but not all of it.

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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28-07-2011, 11:29 AM
RE: Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
Hi Guys. First post. The reason I write is something scarry is happening on the net regarding this story. Evidently, the "new" story making the rounds (especially on conservative/red state sites) is that Breivik was an atheist.Huh Yes, despite numerous religious references surrounding him and his manifesto, people are starting to believe that he was not religious or even a nominal christian. Just this morning, I have received several postings from "friends" on facebook attacking all atheist (some who even know I am one) and trying to slap this crime on atheism. Even when I try to point out the evidence to the contrary, you know citing knowlegeable source and even the manifesto itself, I am met obstinate rejection of my sources and information. They heard it from "fox"/Ann Coulter/Washington Times/etc. and they wouldn't lie.Dodgy

While things socially are getting better for a multiplicity of ideas and experiences, this growing trend of spite and threats is truly distrubing.

Sorry to vent, but I needed to share.
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28-07-2011, 11:55 AM
RE: Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
(28-07-2011 11:29 AM)vtgadfly Wrote:  Hi Guys. First post. The reason I write is something scarry is happening on the net regarding this story. Evidently, the "new" story making the rounds (especially on conservative/red state sites) is that Breivik was an atheist.Huh Yes, despite numerous religious references surrounding him and his manifesto, people are starting to believe that he was not religious or even a nominal christian. Just this morning, I have received several postings from "friends" on facebook attacking all atheist (some who even know I am one) and trying to slap this crime on atheism. Even when I try to point out the evidence to the contrary, you know citing knowlegeable source and even the manifesto itself, I am met obstinate rejection of my sources and information. They heard it from "fox"/Ann Coulter/Washington Times/etc. and they wouldn't lie.Dodgy

While things socially are getting better for a multiplicity of ideas and experiences, this growing trend of spite and threats is truly distrubing.

Sorry to vent, but I needed to share.

This is expected... Everyone is distancing themselves from this guy... most are using the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. "No way he was a true Christian... thus he must have been an Atheist!". Ann Coulter and such see this as the diversion it is. Best get some good use out of it and paint your enemy as the cause. Most people will not read the Manifesto and since they would rather him be an Atheist.. then that's what they will believe, regardless of what he says. Obviously he is an Atheist pretending to be a Christian to paint Christians as the bad guys... blah blah blah you get the idea.

Please post links to conservative/red state sites doing this... might have some fun.

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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28-07-2011, 12:34 PM
RE: Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
Hey, Myst.

Good point about hyperreality. For the record, I meant in the sense of mental illness (psychopathy, sociopathy, schizophrenia) which is a completely different thing.

I believe fully in socially constructed reality, so yes, absolutely, I believe that there are vast discrepancies between actuality and what we perceive to be real or what we ascribe as reality. So yes, I'm right with you on hyperreality. But that's proper fuctionality, not a disorder.

The beauty of a concept like memetics is that it offers insight into why people do and believe things that will ultimately kill us. Simply put, it's for no other reason than for expressing maladaptive memes. As with maladaptive genes, or any maladaptive replicator, they are self-eliminating... And they usually take their survival machines with them.

So unsustainable practices and the beliefs that fuel them are just that. Unsustainable. Eventually selection catches up to them.

But in the interim, it seems entirely reasonable to those caught in the construct.

I agree with you that video games can add to the hyperreality. Notions like extra lives and the zero-sum, zero-mercy, zero-regard for life nature of some games seriously warp people's perceptions of what life is about and what is acceptable. That for me was the sad commentary I referred to. Equating killing more people with a "bonus mission", like he's trying for the high score.

So in terms hyperreality and the effect of maladaptive memes, were "sick" insofar as we're at risk. We can be "healed" by adopting new memes, but that's an infuriatingly difficult process. But we're not mentally ill.

In terms of fault, with mental illness, no one asks to be sick. They're accountable because we're all accountable, but they most often aren't at fault. In terms of hyperreality, it's far more grey. Some people believe these things willingly and even in the face of evidence, while others are simply the product of their upbringing. As I mentioned before, adopting new ideas and shedding old ones is not always an easy process as it involves complex systems dynamics. So for me, "well you shoulda," isn't a very useful indicator of fault.

As for this gunman, he lived in a world very different from my own. His world was peopled by Muslims and Marxists that represented a threat so grave that he felt he needed to kill dozens of people and most likely forfeit his own life to make the world a better place. I don't know how much of that world is cultural (although I know it's some because he's not alone, which is one of the scariest parts of all of this) and how much of it is born from a mental illness that caused a break from reality (and I can only speculate that this man had to be ill), but it's likely a combination of both. How much of it is his "fault" can only be answered through investigation and diagnosis.

As far as what caused it, I agree, single-determinant theory is always crap. Life is complex and it's influenced by multiple determinants. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to simplify things, likely for personal gain.

Anyone saying he did it because of video games or because he was an Atheist is full of it. Which brings us to...

Hey, Gadfly.

Pleased to meet you!

When I read the OP quotes, I got the impression that he was an Atheist. Obviously he references religion heavily, but outside of the bizarre Justicar thing, I never got a sense of onward Christian soldier.

That being said, these people saying he did it because he's an Atheist are straight up dirty, stank-ass, straight dirty mother fuckers. How DARE they use the death of over eighty people to score cheap fucking political points! It's disgusting! And what kind of perverted mind uses a killing spree to foment hatred?!?!

From an intellectual standpoint, they are the self-interested peddlers of simplistic analysis I mentioned above. From a life standpoint, they are wretched puke-infested feculant vomit-piles of would-be humanity.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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28-07-2011, 12:44 PM
RE: Anders Behring Breivik 1500 Page Manifesto
"From an intellectual standpoint, they are the self-interested peddlers of simplistic analysis I mentioned above. From a life standpoint, they are wretched puke-infested feculant vomit-piles of would-be humanity.

Peace and Love and Empathy,"

Sorry, just love the balance there.

I don't know why we can't, as a world, just agree that this guy was seriously mentally disturbed. He was crazy, and that is universal. fundamentalist, atheist, muslim, every group has it's own crazy people. It doesn't matter what god you believe in (although I would argue that in itself is a kind of mental instability), or if you do, because if you are comfortable with the idea of killing people who have done nothing to you, then you are mentally unstable. You need to be put away and treated or at least studied.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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