Angels and stuff
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27-04-2016, 08:27 AM
RE: Angels and stuff
(27-04-2016 05:29 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 11:17 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Actually, it's not a concept taught in your religion, but it is a concept taught in my religion.

Deut: 30:7 - 19 talks about how keeping the commandments (which is a poorly translated word) is totally within our power to do, but it's our choice to choose to do it. According to my religion, we have the power to choose good over evil, and life over death. G-d urges us to choose one way or another, but it's ultimately our own choice.

But God knows in advance what we will choose. So... if he wanted to he could change what we would choose by changing the circumstances that made us choose action A over action B. Purely by a. being omnipotent and b. knowing in advance what the choice will be, he takes away the free choice, since no matter what he does, whether inaction or action the choice that we make is determined by his will and not our own.


Another illogical conundrum served up by religion.

I'll be dawg!
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27-04-2016, 09:13 AM
RE: Angels and stuff
(27-04-2016 08:16 AM)Alla Wrote:  A boy was born in a family and in a neighborhood where drugs were sold, where there were many criminal activities. Where people didn't have good education.
Where there was music and movies that glorified this kind of life. This boy could not know that there is different life.
I see what this boy is learning. I KNOW what kind of choices he will make.
Is my knowledge somehow robbing his agency?

But let's say I want to give this boy an opportunity to start to make different choices. Let's say he was adopted by a different family that started to teach him different values. Boy likes it. He likes his new life. He wants to make choices that will make him happier.
Now when I(God) see this and I know boys thoughts and his heart I KNOW what choices he will start to make from now on.
Is my knowledge robbing his agency in any way?

"yes" sorta. It's not "robbing" because there never WAS the agency at any point because there is no option when you actually know the outcome and choose it for the boy. He never had any agency because you with your knowledge made all the agency choices by placing the scenario for the life.

Just as if you line up a pile of dominos and know it is tested proven to not mess up. If you select a special little domino you think, hmm I can put this one 3rd in the row, 25th in the row, Or 33rd in the row. Now it will bang up against other dominos but you know its outcome is what you've placed it to be. If you place it 33rd it has no range of agency anymore or any less in at 25 or 3. Even still that special little domino is with out choice or agency, it was set up to be. As was the one in the row before it and after it & the ones before those ones and after those ones.

If a being such as a creator god was an Omnipresent actor, there is no agency but the agency of that being. If it set things to begin. All the components have already been set up.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-04-2016, 09:27 AM
RE: Angels and stuff
(27-04-2016 08:23 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  
(24-04-2016 11:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  May be I was. I was asking many questions before I became LDS.

Let's just rearrange the letters LDS to LSD...

...and voila, it all makes sense.
Laugh out load I always appreciate good humor

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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27-04-2016, 12:11 PM
RE: Angels and stuff
(26-04-2016 10:53 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  "Free will" is not a biblical concept nor is it taught in the Bible. According to scripture, everything, down to the tiniest minutia, was pre orchestrated by God; including the War in Heaven, the rebellion of Lucifer, and the creation of sin in humanity.

Simple answer: because God planned it and did it.

That is Laplace's Demon.

#sigh
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27-04-2016, 02:28 PM
RE: Angels and stuff
I was thaught that every organism including angels have free will. I find curious that god created lucifer despite he knew that lucifer will rebel. So god INTENTIONALLY brought evil to the universe.

"Skepticism is the first step towards truth" -Denis Diderot
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27-04-2016, 02:37 PM
RE: Angels and stuff
(27-04-2016 02:28 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  I was thaught that every organism including angels have free will. I find curious that god created lucifer despite he knew that lucifer will rebel. So god INTENTIONALLY brought evil to the universe.
When God created Lucifer He didn't know that He will choose to fall. But when Lucifer chose to fall God INTENTIONALLY brought him ONLY to the Earth NOT to the universe.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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27-04-2016, 02:43 PM
RE: Angels and stuff
(27-04-2016 02:37 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(27-04-2016 02:28 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  I was thaught that every organism including angels have free will. I find curious that god created lucifer despite he knew that lucifer will rebel. So god INTENTIONALLY brought evil to the universe.
When God created Lucifer He didn't know that He will choose to fall. But when Lucifer chose to fall God INTENTIONALLY brought him ONLY to the Earth NOT to the universe.

What other limits or weaknesses does this god have besides lacking omniscience?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-04-2016, 02:51 PM
RE: Angels and stuff
(27-04-2016 02:37 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(27-04-2016 02:28 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  I was thaught that every organism including angels have free will. I find curious that god created lucifer despite he knew that lucifer will rebel. So god INTENTIONALLY brought evil to the universe.
When God created Lucifer He didn't know that He will choose to fall. But when Lucifer chose to fall God INTENTIONALLY brought him ONLY to the Earth NOT to the universe.

But why did he bring him to the place he planned on putting his humans? Why was it necessary if it meant exposing people to evil that he doesn't want us around anyway?
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27-04-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: Angels and stuff
In my up bring I was told for disobeying God, Satan was sent to the furthest distance from God. That was his punishment.

This always confused me as in I was also told nothing was out of God's reach. And when I asked why not just destroy Satan? I was told he would.

So like when?

Soon.

Right.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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27-04-2016, 03:34 PM
RE: Angels and stuff
What about Goblins, huh? Doesn't anybody belive in Goblins? You never hear about this. Except on Halloween and then it's all negative shit. And what about Zombies? You never hear from Zombies! That's the trouble with Zombies, they're unreliable! I say if you're going to go for the Angel bullshit you might as well go for the Zombie package as well.


-- George Carlin

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The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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