Angry about FGM
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02-08-2012, 12:37 AM
RE: Angry about FGM
(01-08-2012 11:05 PM)Filox Wrote:  Can you people please NOT compare male and female circumcision?

Who was doing a comparison? There was an objection to the descriptive levels of "badness" for male circumcision.

(01-08-2012 11:05 PM)Filox Wrote:  Because you will never find any woman that will go to the doctor and ask a circumcision, and you can find thousands of males that do that. I have a few friends that willingly went in their 20+ years to do the procedure. Also, those that did it did not say that sex had less feeling, in fact they all confirmed that the sex was much better now, that they have removed the extra foreskin. There are hygienic reasons behind it as well. Some people also love the new look more than the old look.

OK. Firstly, if you choose to have a circumcision, you are very unlikely to admit that your choice was a bad one. This is basic human psychology. You are more likely to hear "Oh yeah, guys... sex is much better" than "Damn, that irreversible operation that I chose to have done made my glans less sensitive and now sex isn't as good".

There aren't hygienic reasons. Unless you're too lazy to wash under your foreskin after sex, or during your usual shower. This is a tired (and disproven) claim made by pro-mutilators.

The foreskin evolved to be there for a reason. It does what it is supposed to do. And it does it well. If it didn't, our ancestors would have failed to procreate. Trust in evolution.

Now, that was the first point that I wanted to make.

The second point is this... what difference does it make, whether or not men (through poor choice) decide to be circumcised? That isn't the issue here.

Some women get very aroused when they are in simulated rape situations. If those women choose to be raped, does that mean that ordinary rape isn't so bad? No. No it most certainly doesn't. The problem with childhood circumcision is that it is a violation of the body... a disfigurement (of both genders) that is done without the willing, knowledgeable consent of the person who is having it done to them.

Comparing the levels of disfigurement is akin to the comparison of rapes, saying that one person had a worse rape than another person. It is the violation that is important.
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02-08-2012, 02:35 AM
RE: Angry about FGM
Red, do you know anyone who got circumcision, or are you just saying what you read somewhere? I like to use real life examples anywhere I can and I have normal friends that do not lie to me. If there was something wrong with his penis, he would have told me so. He likes his penis more now after being circumcised. You do not have to believe that, but I can't accept your reasoning over somebody that actually did that.

There is one thing I haven't seen anyone mention. Not every penis has the same amount of foreskin. I have very little, so no circumcision would make sense for me. My friend on the other hand had a lot of it, more that it is "normal". He had issues with that, it was interfering with his sex life. It bothered him physically and he didn't like the way it looked. He talked to his girlfriend and she was not that fond of the extra-extra foreskin as well. Now, he is happy, he got rid of those problems he had.

What is not understandable here?

This does not work for everyone, but there are cases like this one, where circumcisions is a good option.

You can say that tattoo or nose rings are a disfigurement as well...

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02-08-2012, 02:48 AM
RE: Angry about FGM
(02-08-2012 02:35 AM)Filox Wrote:  Red, do you know anyone who got circumcision, or are you just saying what you read somewhere? I like to use real life examples anywhere I can and I have normal friends that do not lie to me. If there was something wrong with his penis, he would have told me so. He likes his penis more now after being circumcised. You do not have to believe that, but I can't accept your reasoning over somebody that actually did that.

What you're doing is using argument by anecdote. I'm using reports from scientists. I can't give sources as they're bits of information that have been picked up over the years. If your friend had an extra long foreskin, then he was perfectly within his rights to have it operated on. I'm not disputing freely-made decisions. I'm disputing the idea that the foreskin was some big evolutionary mistake... because one desert tribe says so.

(02-08-2012 02:35 AM)Filox Wrote:  You can say that tattoo or nose rings are a disfigurement as well...

Again, it is a matter of choice. How would you feel about tattooing a baby? Or piercing its nipples? Body alterations that are chosen by the person having them done... I've absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. Their body, their decision.

Anything done to a baby is a violation. Even if, as an adult, they like the change. The choice should have been theirs, not someone else's.
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02-08-2012, 03:05 AM
RE: Angry about FGM
If you read back my posts, the arguments I made are for grown ups, not children. I also agree that it should not be done to kids. Let people decide on their own. But if they do decide, it is normal to do it, it is nothing bad and wrong there. That is why hospitals do that, if it was bad, they would not do it. You will not see female circumcision done in modern hospitals...

And I hate this "argument by anecdote" thing. If you say that it does something and I KNOW that some people feel differently, then it is a FACT, not some "argument by anecdote". Specially if I emphasize the fact that it is not the same for everyone. I trust real life experience and direct approach more than things I can read somewhere. Specially if the logic supports that real life experience and if you can find more examples like this one to read about.

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02-08-2012, 03:17 AM
RE: Angry about FGM
(02-08-2012 03:05 AM)Filox Wrote:  And I hate this "argument by anecdote" thing. If you say that it does something and I KNOW that some people feel differently, then it is a FACT, not some "argument by anecdote".

The FACT is that some people you know told you something. And that's where it ends.

It may well be perfectly true, but it isn't evidence of anything... else, we can assume that a sizeable proportion of the USA actually has experienced alien abductions.

Or that ghosts are real, because I know plenty of people who have seen them. They told me that they'd seen them, so it must be a FACT... yeah?

And then there's the whole gods thing. You must reject anecdotal evidence there, or you wouldn't be an atheist.

The human mind is a wonderfully unreliable thing. That reliability suffers further when "knowledge" is passed from one person to another. People can imagine all sorts of things and believe them so stridently that those beliefs replace the preceding truths.
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02-08-2012, 03:30 AM
RE: Angry about FGM
Yes, it is all as you say it, but this is not a mental thing, this is a physical thing. I find it hard to imagine having better orgasms, but in reality you have much lower feeling and smaller orgasm. It's not like hallucinating.

Also, it is not "some people" it is my personal real life friend. I tend to believe my friends more than some random stranger with some random report from the Internet. Not bashing you here, just saying in general.

I am doing all sorts of different experiments when I get intrigued with something, and although it is not a valid scientific evidence, my personal experience plays a great role in my understanding and accepting real scientific evidence. Or disputing them. Or finding the middle ground. I am always sceptical until I confirm things somehow, on my own. My very good friends have a credibility and I take their word as I did the experiment myself, as I know them and trust in their judgement.

Don't worry, I am careful with these things and I am rarely wrong in my observations. Never actually. Omniobserver. Omnilogical. The-All-Knowing-Filox...

Big Grin

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02-08-2012, 03:45 AM
RE: Angry about FGM
(02-08-2012 03:30 AM)Filox Wrote:  Also, it is not "some people" it is my personal real life friend. I tend to believe my friends more than some random stranger with some random report from the Internet. Not bashing you here, just saying in general.

I'm sure that every alien abductee has a best friend, too. Smile

I'm not suggesting that you should believe me instead of your friend. That would be just as problematical an anecdote as the one you started with. I was just producing a reason why anecdotal evidence isn't the best way to reach a factual conclusion. But you can (and will) work that out for yourself, whilst you're filling your brain with knowledge throughout your life.
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02-08-2012, 03:57 AM
RE: Angry about FGM
Yes.

Now, we can release this subject and let other people comment here as well.

There, you are free to post now.

Big Grin

P.S.
To tell you the truth, if my good friend told he was abducted by aliens and if I see that he is not BSing me, that would be something that I would worry about. Both for his mental health and for the possibility it really happened... It all comes down to trust, how much can you trust someone.

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02-08-2012, 04:07 AM
RE: Angry about FGM
(02-08-2012 03:57 AM)Filox Wrote:  It all comes down to trust, how much can you trust someone.

How much can you trust yourself? I'm sure that some (or many) of those abductees genuinely believe that they were taken by aliens. The brain is just a collection of neurons and synapses. It can easily be fooled... and not just by mental illness.
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03-08-2012, 07:54 PM
RE: Angry about FGM
(01-08-2012 12:19 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  There is another side in this argument though. These traditions have been around for so long that the girls believe it is nessesary. Fgm aside (it's horrible) the wearing of hijabs and burkas has become a symbol of identity. I can't remember where the articule came from, but thewomen involved said that we (western society) were the perverts. They said that by allowing women to wear short shorts and mini-skirts we were dressing them up to be eye candy; their sole purpose was to please the eye and looking around sometimes I'm inclined to believe them.

All that said I do not condone fgm or the oppression of the peoples rights. Just trying to provide a different viewpoint.

There may be another side of the argument--that would be the wrong side of the argument. I'm with Sam Harris here when he argues that there is an objective answer to the question of whether it is better to dress women in burlap sacks and mutilate them or not. We (western society) are not dressing women to be our eye candy. Western women dress the way they want. Western women could wear a burka or hijab if they preferred. Any wonder that it doesn't happen? Can a women in a religiously conservative community where women wear burkas or hijabs chose not to wear that clothing?

Stupid and harmful religious beliefs do not deserve our respect and should be called out when we see them.
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