Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
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25-04-2013, 10:32 PM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
Hey, DLJ.

Quote: Would you agree or disagree that there is a difference between individual rights and responsibilities and group rights / responsibilities?

Sure. But I don't see what you're getting at.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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25-04-2013, 10:48 PM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(25-04-2013 10:32 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, DLJ.

Quote: Would you agree or disagree that there is a difference between individual rights and responsibilities and group rights / responsibilities?

Sure. But I don't see what you're getting at.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

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25-04-2013, 11:28 PM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(25-04-2013 10:32 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, DLJ.

Quote: Would you agree or disagree that there is a difference between individual rights and responsibilities and group rights / responsibilities?

Sure. But I don't see what you're getting at.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I'm getting at the difference between group morality vs. individual morality.

You said:
Quote: Nobody has an obligation to say anything. In fact, we have the right to not say anything.

... and I agree, whole-heartedly.

The individual zebra, after the shock of seeing one of its own getting munched by a croc has the right to inwardly say "Thank fuck it wasn't me this time. Praise be to the zebra-god" and when interviewed feel no obligation to express an opinion.
A bit like most people's reaction to the Boston tragedy or the earthquake in China.

But as a herd, is there not the need to consider ownership of the problem and re-think the best way to mitigate future risk?

So an individual moderate (feminist, muslim, gay priest, worker for a eco-raping industry) can legitimately distance themselves from the extremist view and can feel no personal responsibility but the overall organisation / entity (church, movement, business) has a responsibility for better governance (fairness, accountability, transparency) towards the overall community.



I hope that made sense. My nutrition levels are low. Need breakfast!

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26-04-2013, 12:35 AM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2013 12:40 AM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(25-04-2013 05:31 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Examples of sexism today you ask: only 14 countries in the world have legalized same-sex marriage, in almost every country in the world women get paid less for the same task than men, forced prostitution, "innocent" sexual abuse (men touching women in the bus), tv shows objectifying women bodies. Those are all symptoms and causes of sexisms.

Anyone get a look at Gayle? Yikes. (Sexist joke!!!)

None of those things you listed are sexism related to me. Am I taking crazy pills? Same-sex marriage is not sexism to me. The opponents aren't attacking their gender, they're attacking the act that these two equal genders are trying engage in out of fear and ignorance. True, they are attacking a change in gender roles, but homophobia and Bible scripture seem to be the main issue typically addressed. I've never found the "women are paid less" argument to hold much water because there is no standardization of salary. Men also get paid less than other men for the same job, that's just how it works. Forced prostitution is not sexist at all. There's a market for sex and the primary buyers are horny men seeking women, so women are desired product. It's just human trafficking, not gender inequality. There's also forced slavery for little boys. Some women may get groped inappropriately but it's not like society accepts it because women deserve it. If such behavior is discovered, there is immediate social backlash.

I also found the list of feminists on wikipedia, but these are just individual women. Are there no moderate feminists groups?

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26-04-2013, 08:13 AM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(25-04-2013 11:28 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(25-04-2013 10:32 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, DLJ.


Sure. But I don't see what you're getting at.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I'm getting at the difference between group morality vs. individual morality.

You said:
Quote: Nobody has an obligation to say anything. In fact, we have the right to not say anything.

... and I agree, whole-heartedly.

The individual zebra, after the shock of seeing one of its own getting munched by a croc has the right to inwardly say "Thank fuck it wasn't me this time. Praise be to the zebra-god" and when interviewed feel no obligation to express an opinion.
A bit like most people's reaction to the Boston tragedy or the earthquake in China.

But as a herd, is there not the need to consider ownership of the problem and re-think the best way to mitigate future risk?

So an individual moderate (feminist, muslim, gay priest, worker for a eco-raping industry) can legitimately distance themselves from the extremist view and can feel no personal responsibility but the overall organisation / entity (church, movement, business) has a responsibility for better governance (fairness, accountability, transparency) towards the overall community.



I hope that made sense. My nutrition levels are low. Need breakfast!


The moderates of any ideological position do provide cover for the extremists so long as they do not denounce them.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-04-2013, 09:59 AM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
Hey, Chas.

Quote:The moderates of any ideological position do provide cover for the extremists so long as they do not denounce them.

Rubbish.

Hey, DLJ.

Your leading question wound up exactly where I thought it would Cool

You're trying to set up a special case. Within the realm of your own logic, it makes sense. Otherwise not.

The idea that if an individual or an organisation doesn't excommunicate and denounce someone who commits an act of violence that the organisation actually supports those people is asinine.

What Harris is attempting to do is reframe the argument so that EVERYONE can be blamed for the actions of a few. It allows people to be bigoted and feel justified.

"No, no, Hamas isn't the problem, PALESTINIANS are."
"No, no, the IRA isn't the problem, the IRISH are."
"No, no, the US army isn't the problem, AMERICANS are."

I have ZERO obligation to denounce Kobe Bryant, OJ Simpson or Clarence Thomas just because I'm black and to even suggest it is preposterous. But it's DEMANDED under Harris' logic.

People have often said THAT organisations have an obligation to denounce the extremists, but no one has ever explained WHY. Except Harris. His why is that moderates give cover to and are somehow responsible for extremists. That's one of the most cockamamie things I've ever heard. And yet people buy it. Such is life.

So if you're looking for Camile Paglia or Gloria Steinam to denounce red-hair lady, you're gonna be waiting a long time.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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26-04-2013, 10:45 AM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
Hey Ghosty,

Two things:

1. You lied.

"I don't see what you're getting at."
vs.
"Your leading question wound up exactly where I thought it would"

Tsk tsk tsk.

But actually you didn't lie because your first statement was correct ... only.... because...

2. You jumped to an unstated option (unstated by me) of "excommunicate and denounce"

I made no reference to Sam Harris.

Perhaps I was not being clear.

I was asking whether you thought that an organisation (as opposed to an individual) has a responsibility to address the issue of extremists who wave the same banner?

I did not mention any method of demonstrating that responsibility or any sanction / punishment etc.

And it's an 'ought' question, not an 'is' question.

For background... I'm teaching a Governance course and the distinction between Organisational Ethics vs Individual Ethics is discussed.

A further question of how much control the Organisation should or could exert over the Individual is also interesting but that's not what I'm asking.

Cheers
DLJ

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26-04-2013, 10:58 AM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
Hey, DLJ.

1 - Don't ask leading questions.

2 - I didn't lie. I suspected Cool

3 - I mentioned Harris merely as a popular source and proponent of the ideology in question.

Quote:I was asking whether you thought that an
organisation (as opposed to an individual) has a
responsibility to address the issue of extremists
who wave the same banner?

Nope. Neither organisations nor individuals.

Also, they should not be viewed as guilty by association.

Quote:For background... I'm teaching a Governance course
and the distinction between Organisational Ethics
vs Individual Ethics is discussed.

Do tell.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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26-04-2013, 11:01 AM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(25-04-2013 06:42 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(25-04-2013 06:09 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Where did I say women were minorities?

If we are talking about feminism and you say something like that.(See below) It seems like you are implying that women are a minority.

"So the fact that people who fight for equal
rights for minorities "

I was talking about racial minorities and not about 52% of the world.

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26-04-2013, 11:06 AM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(26-04-2013 12:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
(25-04-2013 05:31 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Examples of sexism today you ask: only 14 countries in the world have legalized same-sex marriage, in almost every country in the world women get paid less for the same task than men, forced prostitution, "innocent" sexual abuse (men touching women in the bus), tv shows objectifying women bodies. Those are all symptoms and causes of sexisms.

Anyone get a look at Gayle? Yikes. (Sexist joke!!!)

None of those things you listed are sexism related to me. Am I taking crazy pills? Same-sex marriage is not sexism to me. The opponents aren't attacking their gender, they're attacking the act that these two equal genders are trying engage in out of fear and ignorance. True, they are attacking a change in gender roles, but homophobia and Bible scripture seem to be the main issue typically addressed. I've never found the "women are paid less" argument to hold much water because there is no standardization of salary. Men also get paid less than other men for the same job, that's just how it works. Forced prostitution is not sexist at all. There's a market for sex and the primary buyers are horny men seeking women, so women are desired product. It's just human trafficking, not gender inequality. There's also forced slavery for little boys. Some women may get groped inappropriately but it's not like society accepts it because women deserve it. If such behavior is discovered, there is immediate social backlash.

I also found the list of feminists on wikipedia, but these are just individual women. Are there no moderate feminists groups?

The fact that there has to be radical feminist groups should indicate to you that the average feminist is moderate.

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