Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
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26-04-2013, 08:12 PM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2013 08:30 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
Ghost,

Thank you.

Your last paragraph... the 'ought' response was what I was looking for.

Your longer 'is' section had some things that might be worth commenting upon...

The lady in China who was executed for the milk/melamine scandal did not put it there herself and therefore was not held 'responsible'.
She was the CEO and therefore held 'accountable'.

It was recognised that she was not even aware of this event occurring at the time. It was argued that she should have been and this was the crime.
Not exactly 'guilt by association' but 'guilt by accountability'.

So I get what you say about crime.

Of the examples you gave, the crime of 'blackness' stood out. Again, giving me pause for thought.

Whereas the other examples involved voluntary association.

Consider

Blackness is involuntary but signing up as a black activist is voluntary.
Being female is involuntary but signing up as a feminist activist is voluntary.

Here is another example:
If it had been decided that Blair was guilty of taking the UK into an illegal war, the British population could not be held to account but the Parliament (the representatives of the people who had made the 'go' decision) perhaps should be.
I'll have to look up the rules on this one.



So if an activist group / church / football supporters club / political party / business / anything that has voluntary membership creates a code of ethics / policy / vision statement, good governance calls for:
Operating principles;
a defined span of control (the boundaries of the organisation structure’s decision rights);
defined levels of authority;
defined structure for delegation of responsibility and defined escalation procedures.

Good practices for creating, encouraging and maintaining desired behaviour throughout the enterprise include:
Communication throughout the enterprise of desired behaviours and corporate values (this can be done via a code of ethics);
Awareness of desired behaviour, strengthened by senior management example (‘walk the talk’);
Incentives to encourage and deterrents to enforce desired behaviour.
Rules and norms, which provide more guidance, and will typically be found in a Code of Ethics.

Also, best practice policies should include:
Consequences of failing to comply with the policy
The means of handling exceptions.

So if an individual belonging to that entity / organisation does / says something contrary to these ethics there is usually (perhaps, ought to be) some form of penalty (from slap on the wrist to disassociation (excommunication?) through to execution).
The penalty is administered by the given society / entity / organisation.

What I am not sure about is what accountability the organisation has if the individual commits a crime beyond the organisation's span of control. As far as I know, the organisation has no responsibility to report this.

More to the point though is what accountability the organisation has if the individual commits an outrageous act but a NON-crime beyond the organisation's span of control but in the name of the organisation.


So, I wonder about 'ought'.

To use the example of the OP, should there be codes of conduct for activist groups?
We have seen this emerging in the Free-thought activist community.

Equally, if a religion declares itself to be a 'religion of peace' (its code of ethics) but then does not decry violent acts by individuals (bombing, child rape etc.) is it not unreasonable to hold the organisation (the religion in this case) to account.
Again, I'm using the word 'accountable' not 'responsible'.

This would be the case in business and the punishment would be loss of market share through reputation damage.

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26-04-2013, 08:43 PM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(26-04-2013 07:14 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 06:57 PM)nach_in Wrote:  YAY! Smartass

Don't be too happy.

A million plus gold stars still doesn't come close to a rep point or even a 'like' with our Ghostly friend.

Maybe some day, until then, I'll take what I get Sleepy

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26-04-2013, 09:25 PM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(26-04-2013 11:10 AM)nach_in Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 12:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Anyone get a look at Gayle? Yikes. (Sexist joke!!!)

None of those things you listed are sexism related to me. Am I taking crazy pills? Same-sex marriage is not sexism to me. The opponents aren't attacking their gender, they're attacking the act that these two equal genders are trying engage in out of fear and ignorance. True, they are attacking a change in gender roles, but homophobia and Bible scripture seem to be the main issue typically addressed. I've never found the "women are paid less" argument to hold much water because there is no standardization of salary. Men also get paid less than other men for the same job, that's just how it works. Forced prostitution is not sexist at all. There's a market for sex and the primary buyers are horny men seeking women, so women are desired product. It's just human trafficking, not gender inequality. There's also forced slavery for little boys. Some women may get groped inappropriately but it's not like society accepts it because women deserve it. If such behavior is discovered, there is immediate social backlash.

I also found the list of feminists on wikipedia, but these are just individual women. Are there no moderate feminists groups?

You don't see sexism in that stuff because it's naturalized, it's naturalized that homosexuality is a less worthy preference than heterosexuality, that's sexist (yeah, sex, gender and sexuality are all interconnected). It's not a shallow thing about the bible, the bible itself is full of sexism (selling daughters and such) and it's not surprising that it generates sexist ideas today.
I'll give you the salary arguement because I'm lazy and don't want to find the numbers right now Tongue

Forced prostitution is not sexist? It actually makes me sad to read that, you must understand that sexism is not just an act of a man against a women, it's not just a hate crime, it's a general understanding of the world and how it works.
That's why feminist use the word patriarchy, it's not that they say the tribal patriarchal families exist in this parts of the world, it means that there's a widespread and very subtle way of dividing people into categories and assigning a hierarchy to those categories (and that's precisely where these extreme feminist fail, they reproduce the same system of dominance).
At a first glance you could say that forced prostitution is just a market with a very particular demand, but ask yourself why is that? why are women viewed for all those men as bodies that can be bought? If it's just a market, why is prostitution outlawed almost everywhere? why can't willing prostitutes form unions or be protected by labour laws?
It is human trafficking, but with a vast majority of women as victims, that points to a sexist cause.

About women being touched, yeah, it's not that women deserve it, the problem is that men think they're entitled to do it. And the social backlash is a feminist victory. But lets not forget that in many case of rape the idea that "she asked for it because she was wearing sluty clothes" is still an argument used, even in court some times; I know that bringing up rape is kind of a fallacy here, but it's just the same underlying sexism, so I mention it to make it more notorious.


About the moderate feminist groups, of course there are, you probably don't see them because they're not so vocal as the extreme ones. I think it's easier to find the more moderate groups within some political movements and in the academia environment. They also tend to form NGOs to study and further they causes, but you have to look for them if you want to find them because, again, they're not scandalous.

Thank you for the calm and rational response. There seems to be a violent name-calling attitude taking hold in this forum as of late and I always appreciate a cordial reply. I may not still fully agree with you, but I was flinching as I re-read my post. I don't have a fully formed opinion on a lot of things regarding the topic yet, other than my concern with how feminism is becoming synonymous with anti-male.

Cheers.

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26-04-2013, 09:55 PM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(26-04-2013 09:25 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 11:10 AM)nach_in Wrote:  You don't see sexism in that stuff because it's naturalized, it's naturalized that homosexuality is a less worthy preference than heterosexuality, that's sexist (yeah, sex, gender and sexuality are all interconnected). It's not a shallow thing about the bible, the bible itself is full of sexism (selling daughters and such) and it's not surprising that it generates sexist ideas today.
I'll give you the salary arguement because I'm lazy and don't want to find the numbers right now Tongue

Forced prostitution is not sexist? It actually makes me sad to read that, you must understand that sexism is not just an act of a man against a women, it's not just a hate crime, it's a general understanding of the world and how it works.
That's why feminist use the word patriarchy, it's not that they say the tribal patriarchal families exist in this parts of the world, it means that there's a widespread and very subtle way of dividing people into categories and assigning a hierarchy to those categories (and that's precisely where these extreme feminist fail, they reproduce the same system of dominance).
At a first glance you could say that forced prostitution is just a market with a very particular demand, but ask yourself why is that? why are women viewed for all those men as bodies that can be bought? If it's just a market, why is prostitution outlawed almost everywhere? why can't willing prostitutes form unions or be protected by labour laws?
It is human trafficking, but with a vast majority of women as victims, that points to a sexist cause.

About women being touched, yeah, it's not that women deserve it, the problem is that men think they're entitled to do it. And the social backlash is a feminist victory. But lets not forget that in many case of rape the idea that "she asked for it because she was wearing sluty clothes" is still an argument used, even in court some times; I know that bringing up rape is kind of a fallacy here, but it's just the same underlying sexism, so I mention it to make it more notorious.


About the moderate feminist groups, of course there are, you probably don't see them because they're not so vocal as the extreme ones. I think it's easier to find the more moderate groups within some political movements and in the academia environment. They also tend to form NGOs to study and further they causes, but you have to look for them if you want to find them because, again, they're not scandalous.

Thank you for the calm and rational response. There seems to be a violent name-calling attitude taking hold in this forum as of late and I always appreciate a cordial reply. I may not still fully agree with you, but I was flinching as I re-read my post. I don't have a fully formed opinion on a lot of things regarding the topic yet, other than my concern with how feminism is becoming synonymous with anti-male.

Cheers.


I'm glad you got my point, thanks for understanding. And I agree with your concern about feminism becoming synonym of anti-male, it's quite a self-defeating perspective and it really hurts ideas that otherwise could help a lot to improve our societies. No

cheers to you to Big Grin

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26-04-2013, 10:44 PM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
Hey, DLJ.

I wasn't holding up the China thing as a shining example of reason lol. It's China. They kill people. It's like, their thing.

Quote:Blackness is involuntary but signing up as a black activist is voluntary.
Being female is involuntary but signing up as a feminist activist is voluntary.

And yet many people hold black people accountable for the actions of a ridiculously small minority. That's what's going on here. That's what I hope people see.

I gotta say though, I couldn't follow your point form section Sad

There are primary and secondary dimensions of diversity. The primary dimensions are the things you cannot change: age, race, height, sexual orientation, physical and mental abilities... The secondary dimensions are things that can change: Income, health, religion, communication style, customs, education, relationships, appearance... Discrimination, however, functions in the exact same way regardless of if it is against a primary or a secondary dimension of diversity.

Quote:To use the example of the OP, should there be codes of conduct for activist groups?
We have seen this emerging in the Free-thought activist community.

All groups have norms. But putting limitations on protest makes me ill.

I may be missing some of your nuance though.

Quote:Equally, if a religion declares itself to be a 'religion of peace' (its code of ethics) but then does not decry violent acts by individuals (bombing, child rape etc.) is it not unreasonable to hold the organisation (the religion in this case) to account.
Again, I'm using the word 'accountable' not 'responsible'.

It's all just finding creative ways to blame a lot of people for what a few people did.

It is unreasonable to hold the group to anything. Account or responsibility. And I really can't see the distinction.

You took a left turn at Albuquerque in that last post. I hung on for dear life, but I got tossed from the car in the hairpin curve. I can't in all honesty say that I followed what you were developing. Hopefully you can dumb it down for me.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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26-04-2013, 11:30 PM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(26-04-2013 10:44 PM)Ghost Wrote:  ...
I can't in all honesty say that I followed what you were developing. Hopefully you can dumb it down for me.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Oh! FFS! Ohmy

That was dumbed down!

If I dumb it down any further, I might as well join a fucking christian forum Weeping

I mean, how stupid to you have to be...


(26-04-2013 09:25 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  ...
seems to be a violent name-calling attitude taking hold in this forum as of late
...

That's fucking disgraceful.

You should name names. Don't be such a pussy!

Tongue

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27-04-2013, 03:51 PM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2013 04:00 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(24-04-2013 11:20 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Ladies, you already have a matriarchy. We men are just hood ornaments. ...

I know, right? These angry bitch feminists are just their wingmen and sheepherders, "See Honey, aren't you glad I'm not like that?" .... "ummm, yes? dear?"

I like the matriarchy, feels right. Smile

(26-04-2013 08:12 PM)DLJ Wrote:  So, I wonder about 'ought'.

You and me both. Thumbsup

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27-04-2013, 05:48 PM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(26-04-2013 07:30 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 06:19 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Fair enough. Sorry about the misinterpretation.

Apologizing for Logica's strawman. I am disappoint.

I could see how it's a strawman or a redherring.

However my failure to see it as that, or misrepresent it is the thing I apologized for.

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27-04-2013, 06:03 PM (This post was last modified: 27-04-2013 07:53 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
My criticism of feminism has to do with the misuse of the idea called patriarchy.

For some feminists the patriarchy becomes a catch all, a conspiracy of society to repress the woman. They become a perpetual victim, communicating by blaming men while claiming a want for equality. To me this appears to be an offensive form of victim-hood. It can become a blinding factor, in that all they see is a patriarchy. Which limits their ability to communicate their actual issues with out blaming the other sex.

More moderate feminists are reserved, and apply the concept of patriarchy more reservedly.

Simply put, the patriarchy is the system of power and privilege that puts rich, white, able-bodied, upper-class men at the top, and distributes crumbs of power, prestige, and privilege to other groups based on how well they uphold the goals and position of the dudes at the top. Poor, disabled women of colour are, natch, at the bottom. The values, attitudes, social structures, and power structures within a society combine to maintain and perpetuate this power structure, because people who have power don't generally voluntarily reliquish power, and its roots go way back in human history—so far back that the power structure has become invisible to most of us, like the air we breathe.

There are other more radical parts of feminism rejecting all "masculine" idea's and philosophies. Which I don't really want to discuss because I think this part of the topic would be more polarizing.

Anyways I reject the label feminist, or MRA, since I find both "fights for gender equality" to be polarizing and narrow minded. They blame each other while trying to achieve equality, and fail to see those who are gender queer, or transitional.

[Image: tumblr_me60z4REek1r55z7to1_500.jpg]

Rather I would say there is a gender in the terms of what features of your body you actually possess. Mentally the line between man and woman is even more blurry. I think there is a huge grey area mentally and people can mentally be masculine, feminine and everywhere in between.

Because of those ideas I'd rather include equality for all different kinds of genders, sexual orientations,transgender and provide a better frame work for discussing issues. That frame work would be as simple as talking about the problems and solutions for those problems, rather than what they currently do.

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27-04-2013, 09:38 PM
RE: Angry bitch feminist and the AmazingAtheist video
(27-04-2013 03:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-04-2013 08:12 PM)DLJ Wrote:  So, I wonder about 'ought'.

You and me both. Thumbsup

I is being edumacted.
Thank you.

This thread is becoming useful.


(27-04-2013 06:03 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  ...
[Image: tumblr_me60z4REek1r55z7to1_500.jpg]

...
I think there is a huge grey area
...

I think the blue area is huger than the grey area. Big Grin

Of course the biggest area on the graphic is black.

I'm trying to imagine a world where the spectral views (gender, culture, 'life') are the norm and everything is understood to be a continuum.

And then I'm trying to imagine how that world could be (even 'ought' to be) managed/governed.

Struggling with this. Undecided

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