Animal Consciousness and Meat
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09-12-2012, 03:47 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 03:34 PM)frankiej Wrote:  Oh, yay... I've had arguments with other people spouting the same shite. So, I don't really want to watch you go round and round in your own filth.

Anyway, what if I eat meat because I freakin' love it and I don't care about being healthy? Why should I try to be at maximum health. If I can be slightly healthy and still eat tons of meat, then all is well to me. What fun is there in not getting to enjoy the great things in this world that are bad for you?

I can't even imagine wanting to live to an old age anyway... if I didn't live pretty harshly with my consumption of "things", then I might actually live for a while. Why the hell would I want to stay on this shit hole for 70+ years? I am not sure if I even want to make it to 50. Tongue
You can if you want, the private sector will do it's best to accommodate your preferences. Why do you associate reason and evidence with force?. Also, I think you should seek talk therapy for the latter problems you described, I'm not appropriate to speak to in regards to wanting to die prematurely.
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09-12-2012, 03:49 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
Fzu... dude all of your relatives, spanning back throughout your whole family history/generation more than likely ate meat and vegetables. All the way back to when we were in caves. Just like mine, just like everybodys.

We are omnivores.

Because you have decided to be vegan, dude thats up to you. But you cant say there is a definitive "right or wrong" way to eat...because that would be going against your very own evolution.

Maybe your topic should be more dietary.

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You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

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09-12-2012, 03:51 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
Okay, you took what I said a little too seriously, pal. Wink

I just meant that I prefer a live hard and fast lifestyle.


You should also loosen up... get a chip and bacon butty in ya and just chillax.

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09-12-2012, 03:54 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2012 04:02 PM by FZUMedia.)
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 03:49 PM)bemore Wrote:  Fzu... dude all of your relatives, spanning back throughout your whole family history/generation more than likely ate meat and vegetables. All the way back to when we were in caves. Just like mine, just like everybodys.

We are omnivores.

Because you have decided to be vegan, dude thats up to you. But you cant say there is a definitive "right or wrong" way to eat...because that would be going against your very own evolution.
Well, the healthiest way is the right way to go about nutrition from an objective standpoint. It's got nothing to do with me. If you want to live subjectively that's up to you, but I want to optimise myself for the long term rather than short term pleasure. Objectively I can say that there are right and wrong ways to eat with happiness and prosperity being the objective. The same way a guy smoking crack is probably having a great time in the process of doing so, but you just know it's not sustainable by any objective measure. Of course eating a steak is a much lesser example, but you get the principle.
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09-12-2012, 04:13 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 03:54 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  Well, the healthiest way is the right way to go about nutrition from an objective standpoint. It's got nothing to do with me. If you want to live subjectively that's up to you, but I want to optimise myself for the long term rather than short term pleasure.
Dude your still ignoring your very own evolution.

Id think from an objective standpoint everything in moderation is probably key to a balanced diet.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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09-12-2012, 04:21 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 04:13 PM)bemore Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 03:54 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  Well, the healthiest way is the right way to go about nutrition from an objective standpoint. It's got nothing to do with me. If you want to live subjectively that's up to you, but I want to optimise myself for the long term rather than short term pleasure.
Dude your still ignoring your very own evolution.

Id think from an objective standpoint everything in moderation is probably key to a balanced diet.
I don't trust government information on nutrition, they have been wrong and harmful in so many things, the one thing above all else I won't trust them with is my body. If you blindly trust what the Government says you are in for some trouble ..
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09-12-2012, 05:08 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 07:49 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 07:33 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Human ancestors developed eating meat as a food source long before the cultivation of the modern banana, or cooking methods.
Species ancestral to humans such as those within the Australopithecus genus (from which Homo originated) ate widely varying diets including both meat and fruits, early Homo species shifted and became more meat inclined (likely due to climate changes and other dietary restricting changes), while still holding on to both sides of diet.
Modern Humans can easily consume raw meats without prior preparation; food poisoning comes from bacteria not digestive disagreement, most people flavour their meat to make it more appealing and better tasting, simple as that.

Also the banana you can take off a tree these days is likely one of the varieties that were selectively grown and produced to suit the human palette, rather that their practically inedible ancestors.
But from what I have read, 98% of an ape's diet is ruffage/fruit - 2% comes from insects. It is our closest ancestor, and they have almost an identical digestive system to ours.
Those apes are not our ancestors. Our common ancestors are many millions of years in the past.

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09-12-2012, 05:13 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 11:02 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 09:51 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Like I said, we came from a balanced diet predecessor, which itself came from a herbivorous predecessor, which explains our digestive system, which while based initially on herbavoric diet, adapted to suit a slow increase in meat consumption which lead the the mixed diet of Australopithecus, from which Homo species derived a better digestive system for handling meat and Homo ate more meat likely due to previously described dietary restrictions.
We cannot unevolve traits from our predecessors, all we can do is adapt them, which is what we have done in terms of our digestive system, which now harbours some evolutionary left overs which serve no purpose in our more meat centric diets.

Humans lack the ability to produce vitamin C due to a mutation in the "GULO (gulonolactone oxidase) gene"which result in the inability to synthesis the protein. This in no way is caused by our predecessor species diets. But is due to random mutation. The mutation is seen in many species with different dietary habits such as mice, bats (omnivorous) other dry nosed primates, and herbivorous guinea pigs which prevent them from producing the vitamin in the same way.


Also, don't misuse the word "theory" to mean conjecture on my part. Tooth enamel samples taken from early hominid species have been taken and show our ancestors and sister species ate varied, omnivorous diets, and modern human and older Homo jaws and teeth show a strong adaptation for meat consumption. (teeth changes to accommodate tearing and grinding of meat and softer fruit like plants, the jaw changed to accommodate this as well providing less grinding power common in herbivores for example)
Again all theory, I care about results, not what people say. We have identical digestion systems to apes, until you can prove otherwise I will discredit your theories as to why humans are naturally meat eaters.

You don't even need to get that technical to realise that humans are naturally herbivores, it only takes a moments thought, for example;

I eat 3k-5k calories a day in fruit/vegetables and have a low body fat % and perfect scores in blood tests- can you imagine if I ate this amount from meat? I would likely die, not just be fat, but I would actually be in mortal danger. Whereas I can eat 20-35 bananas a day and feel loose as a goose and ready to go. In fact almost all athletes have a primarily plant based diet, low in fat. I know that Usain Bolt and Yohan Blake claim to eat 15 bananas a day and other fruits as a staple. Athletes generally eat meat off season every now and then for a treat, but the staple is fruit- so I think that's important.

Our teeth and our digestive systems show our omnivorous evolution.
We have the shearing and tearing canines and the grinding molars.
Our digestive systems are neither as short as carnivores' nor as long and complex as herbivores.

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09-12-2012, 05:30 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 04:21 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 04:13 PM)bemore Wrote:  Dude your still ignoring your very own evolution.

Id think from an objective standpoint everything in moderation is probably key to a balanced diet.
I don't trust government information on nutrition, they have been wrong and harmful in so many things, the one thing above all else I won't trust them with is my body. If you blindly trust what the Government says you are in for some trouble ..


So often, it comes down to this silly argument. The government? What are you on about?

I listen to scientists, medical doctors, and nutritionists. And to my own body.

Your ignorance of evolution and animal physiology is curable, but will take some effort.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-12-2012, 07:03 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2012 07:08 PM by Free Thought.)
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 11:02 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 09:51 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Like I said, we came from a balanced diet predecessor, which itself came from a herbivorous predecessor, which explains our digestive system, which while based initially on herbavoric diet, adapted to suit a slow increase in meat consumption which lead the the mixed diet of Australopithecus, from which Homo species derived a better digestive system for handling meat and Homo ate more meat likely due to previously described dietary restrictions.
We cannot unevolve traits from our predecessors, all we can do is adapt them, which is what we have done in terms of our digestive system, which now harbours some evolutionary left overs which serve no purpose in our more meat centric diets.

Humans lack the ability to produce vitamin C due to a mutation in the "GULO (gulonolactone oxidase) gene"which result in the inability to synthesis the protein. This in no way is caused by our predecessor species diets. But is due to random mutation. The mutation is seen in many species with different dietary habits such as mice, bats (omnivorous) other dry nosed primates, and herbivorous guinea pigs which prevent them from producing the vitamin in the same way.


Also, don't misuse the word "theory" to mean conjecture on my part. Tooth enamel samples taken from early hominid species have been taken and show our ancestors and sister species ate varied, omnivorous diets, and modern human and older Homo jaws and teeth show a strong adaptation for meat consumption. (teeth changes to accommodate tearing and grinding of meat and softer fruit like plants, the jaw changed to accommodate this as well providing less grinding power common in herbivores for example)
Again all theory, I care about results, not what people say. We have identical digestion systems to apes, until you can prove otherwise I will discredit your theories as to why humans are naturally meat eaters.

You don't even need to get that technical to realise that humans are naturally herbivores, it only takes a moments thought, for example;

I eat 3k-5k calories a day in fruit/vegetables and have a low body fat % and perfect scores in blood tests- can you imagine if I ate this amount from meat? I would likely die, not just be fat, but I would actually be in mortal danger. Whereas I can eat 20-35 bananas a day and feel loose as a goose and ready to go. In fact almost all athletes have a primarily plant based diet, low in fat. I know that Usain Bolt and Yohan Blake claim to eat 15 bananas a day and other fruits as a staple. Athletes generally eat meat off season every now and then for a treat, but the staple is fruit- so I think that's important.


Okay, I'm back. I'll try to keep this from becoming TL;DR, kay?

Again, misuse of the word theory to mean conjecture.

First lets cover the digestive system and evolutionary leftovers, shall we?
Our digestive system is similar to other apes, however, depending on their diet and body size they tend to have longer digestive systems compared to that of a humans, generally speaking their intestines are longer and their stomach tends to have a slightly different shape to allow for easier consumption and digestion of plant matter (remember to take into account body size of the ape when comparing digestive tract size).
Two prime examples of our long past ancestors being more strongly herbivorous and the shift to omnivorous are the appendix, which would have helped dealing with a highly cellulose diet, but due to the omnivorous shift in our closer ancestors, and the somewhat more meat based diet of early Hominid species, it became simply a useless relic attached to our large intestine which now severs no function but to possibly rupture and kill you at random notice.
Also we have those pesky, pesky, feared by children and loved by dentists everywhere: Wisdom Teeth, extra molars which would have assisted in the grinding up of heavy plant matter, but due to physical adaptation of the jaw to accommodation a diet of softer foods such as raw meat and fruits are now misplaced and serve to only push into the rear molars and cause extreme pain. (I should know, they are slowly coming out for me now, self experience is evidence here, right FZU?.)

Also, you have done nothing to discredit my statements, only ignore them and refuse them outright, the objections you have made to point of discrepancies of my argument have been explained as to how they fit in.

Also, many humans live on mostly, or totally raw (or otherwise) meat and can live just as long as those without. You would not die were you to begin consumption of meat products, that is a ludicrously over simplified, over dramatised statement which appears to be constructed to either provoke your opponents (such as myself) into a response borne of Personal Incredulity, or to attempt to give it a grave underpinning which is simply not there and makes it fallacious and either way is intellectually dishonest. You might experience an upset stomach if you simply began gorging yourself on meat, sure, but death is highly unlikely.

You seem to be mixing the high consumption rates of meat in most western societies with the obesity and related health issues such as heart failure which plague them, which is simply not the case; so long as exercise is regular (as it would have been long ago), cholesterol and similar "aliment causing agents" levels can be easily maintained at a safe and healthy level. The problem is not diet (not including junk foods which are a contributor, but are unrelated to the topic at hand) but lack of exercise with causes obesity, not meat based diets as you seem to be trying to imply..


(09-12-2012 04:21 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 04:13 PM)bemore Wrote:  Dude your still ignoring your very own evolution.

Id think from an objective standpoint everything in moderation is probably key to a balanced diet.
I don't trust government information on nutrition, they have been wrong and harmful in so many things, the one thing above all else I won't trust them with is my body. If you blindly trust what the Government says you are in for some trouble ..
Since when did you become I$I? I didn't think you were that crazy. That's all I have to say on that statement.


(09-12-2012 02:20 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 02:03 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You seem to have a very hard time understanding what it means to be an omnivore. Humans are omnivorous because they are capable of eating and digesting food both from plant and animal origin. Whether or not they can survive eating only one of the two is completely irrelevant.

From Wikipedia:
"Humans are omnivorous, capable of consuming a wide variety of plant and animal material. Varying with available food sources in regions of habitation, and also varying with cultural and religious norms, human groups have adopted a range of diets, from purely vegetarian to primarily carnivorous. In some cases, dietary restrictions in humans can lead to deficiency diseases; however, stable human groups have adapted to many dietary patterns through both genetic specialization and cultural conventions to use nutritionally balanced food sources. The human diet is prominently reflected in human culture, and has led to the development of food science.

Until the development of agriculture approximately 10,000 years ago, Homo sapiens employed a hunter-gatherer method as their sole means of food collection. This involved combining stationary food sources (such as fruits, grains, tubers, and mushrooms, insect larvae and aquatic mollusks) with wild game, which must be hunted and killed in order to be consumed. It has been proposed that humans have used fire to prepare and cook food since the time of Homo erectus. Around ten thousand years ago, humans developed agriculture, which substantially altered their diet. This change in diet may also have altered human biology; with the spread of dairy farming providing a new and rich source of food, leading to the evolution of the ability to digest lactose in some adults."
I've said this already! Humans are omnivores, just more leaning to the herbivore side, since compared to most omnivores, like dogs (evolved from wolves) they can eat completely differently to us. So we are omnivores by technicality. I don't know how much more clearer I can make it.

Here is a picture illustration:

1800-3000 calories a day meat eater, junk food, standard Russian diet.

[Image: 165851_2863232598795_690195965_n.jpg]
White Kim Jong Un.


3000-6000 Calories a day, 90% raw vegan.

[Image: 599830_3019897275314_236669829_n.jpg]
Leaner, meaner male specimen, biologically engineered for picking bananas from high trees.

Judge by results not theory.
You have just contradicted yourself with that first statement, given your previous abject refusal that humans are omnivores.

Also you fail to take into account that dogs came from a completely different line in almost every way from humans, and are a totally different species in every way, from their carnivore nature, teeth, jaw and digestive systems, so their diets can hardly be used for analogy with humans, only serving to show the key difference between an omnivorous Great Ape and carnivorous caniformia as food source, whereas you fail to take into account points of natural geographical development which lead to the difference in digestive system to begin with and their lack of a direct common ancestor with hominids (I said direct guys, I know one existed WAY off, but that is too far off to be relevant) so the contrast fails to hold up.


Between the two examples of humans as effected by diet you fail to take into account other variables such as exercise habits, other nutritional content which could balance out the equation, rate of metabolism and judging from the two photos, time period, and other factors which would effect to outcome of your example. Though I will say; the second picture does seem to be lacking somewhat in muscle mass, which tends to develop from carnivorous or balanced diet due to the proteins that people and gain from meat (and other consumables sourced to animals) which aid the muscle development and growth.


Also, your apparent claim of the vegan example (or humans in general) being specialised for picking bananas out of tall trees is bogus. Humans developed on land primarily and developed more in the brain than other apes, and used tools as a consequence and was not engineered (at all) to pick fruits out of tall trees, rather Homo developed ground based food sources such as prey animals and vegetables due to their ground based adoptions a la longer legs compared to arms and bipedal walking, lack of a tail for bipedal balance, etc which inhibit tree based life. Simply because people can do it, does not mean they were specialised for it, Humans are more specialised toward their hands and brains, and generally lack the ability to live as tree based apes do. Other apes who live in trees are prime examples of creatures adapted for picking fruits out of tall trees, they can also live on the land and walk bipedal, but is difficult for them to do so due to their adaptations being primarily dexterous in nature and not optimal for ground based movement.


*When referring to dexterous adaptation, I am referring to general movement ability, humans have highly dexterous hands for example, but not in the way tree life apes are dexterous in their general movement and apparent acrobatic ability in movement between tree, which humans lack.

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