Animal Consciousness and Meat
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09-12-2012, 08:02 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
It is amazing how a topic can start out being rather interesting and digress so quickly by one person's personal assertions and ignorance. Not to mention all the later flip-flopping about humans not being omnivorous.

Going back, I'm sure briefly on the OP, no I don't think I'd have problem continuing to consume animal flesh in all it's yummy varieties. I think we project a lot of emotions on animals that is greatly misplaced. Look at people that try to keep wild animals as "pets" claiming a deep connection that would prevent the animal from ever harming them, either intentionally or unintentional. It's a false assertion with often dangerous consequences.

Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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09-12-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
I agree MSBB, the topic did divulge into a derailed messy argument... Maybe that stuff can be split out into a different thread or something. Consider

Good point about the emotional projection, though I will say that many varieties of wild or otherwise dangerous animals can be domesticated; wolves and dingos for example. Some people have succeeded in the domestication of some bears (never seems to work for Grizzlies though) for a short time, and tigers as well in other places.

The key is raising/domesticating wild species is raising them from a very young age, most mammals as I pointed out before are highly empathetic, so they will form an attachment to their human masters if raised by a person (or people) from a young age and see themselves as one of them.
It can work as a method of interspecies adoption too, for instant alpacas are rapidly becoming popular guard "dogs" for sheep herds due to their habit of imprinting at a young age, and tendency to not back down to aggressors. (if they are placed in a sheep herd at a very young age, they will be looked after and think they are sheep and protect their "kin" as they would normally)

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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09-12-2012, 10:03 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 08:24 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I agree MSBB, the topic did divulge into a derailed messy argument... Maybe that stuff can be split out into a different thread or something. Consider

Good point about the emotional projection, though I will say that many varieties of wild or otherwise dangerous animals can be domesticated; wolves and dingos for example. Some people have succeeded in the domestication of some bears (never seems to work for Grizzlies though) for a short time, and tigers as well in other places.

The key is raising/domesticating wild species is raising them from a very young age, most mammals as I pointed out before are highly empathetic, so they will form an attachment to their human masters if raised by a person (or people) from a young age and see themselves as one of them.
It can work as a method of interspecies adoption too, for instant alpacas are rapidly becoming popular guard "dogs" for sheep herds due to their habit of imprinting at a young age, and tendency to not back down to aggressors. (if they are placed in a sheep herd at a very young age, they will be looked after and think they are sheep and protect their "kin" as they would normally)

I really am prone to disagree that wild animals can be successfully domesticated. Most can be trained but that's a far cry from being domesticated. The alpaca is very territorial. I wouldn't suggest that they are protective of sheep, I would say they are accustomed to sheep so they are not a threat. I've seen them kick the crap out of coyotes. It's scary.

But -- I don't think they're doing it to protect the sheep. They would kick the crap out of a cat, raccoon, etc., that poses no threat to the sheep. It's just crossing their territory.

I have friends who insist their cats aren't domesticated save for crapping in a box.

There's been many people who have tried raising hand raise wolves, lions tigers...some have had disasterous results.
Wolves are totally not evil, like they're protrayed. But there are few who would say they are completely safe either when hand raised. There's a lot of instinctive behaviors that can't be ignored -- all go beyond nurturing them. The same is true for wolf hybrid dogs. They do pick the ones who display the most submissive qualities, but that doesn't instantly make them domesticated.

There are always the people who truly believe they can hand raise lions and keep them as pets. I really believe its not fair for the animal -- but the human projects their emotions onto the animal and believe they don't mind being kept in a small cage.

It's like when I "talk for my dog." I don't really know what he's thinking...I may just be a warm body and meal. He might like me, but he might like my son better. He seems to worry...but I don't know if he really does. He hates fireworks, and thunder and the gsrdeners...but I don't know if he worries they will harm us or himself. All he knows is, he barks loudly and fiercely and eventually it stops (or the gsrdeners eventually leave). I'm sure in his world he thinks he's chased them away...but I don't know for sure.

The other night he chased away a deer (it was on the other side of the fence) but when my husband came home -- he was all bouncy and jumpy...yelping. Now, was be telling my husband about chasing the deer or was he relieved that my husband wasn't attacked by the viscous deer roaming....or did he just want a treat?
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09-12-2012, 10:50 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
... hrmm.. just wanted to add to the discussion a bit on the basis of animals making a personal bond with individual people.

For example my cat is damn near at my side whenever she can be.. she's always in need of some form of physical contact with me.. for example she's curled up laying up agaisnt my side in the chair while I'm typing this.. .... as for my roomate.. doesn't give a fuck about him. ... doesn't "hang out" with him as she does with me. .. I sleep at night .. she's sleeps curled up against one of my legs... I'm not all that knowledgable when it comes to the whole science behind it ... but that does seem to be a difference between dogs and cats that i've noticed.. they way they bond with people.. and i'm sure that holds true with the wild animals too... when it comes to the big cats... bears.. primates... wolves and so on.

anyhow .. not much but just tossing in my thoughts on it... *shrugs*

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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10-12-2012, 07:21 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
The question is not animal consciousness. Arguing that they do not posses some form of consciousness is ridiculous. Animals form their own morality from their own form of empathy, how can they not be conscious?

The question is if they are aware of their purpose, and whether or not we put the same value we have on our species onto others.

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10-12-2012, 07:24 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 10:03 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  It's like when I "talk for my dog." I don't really know what he's thinking...I may just be a warm body and meal. He might like me, but he might like my son better. He seems to worry...but I don't know if he really does. He hates fireworks, and thunder and the gsrdeners...but I don't know if he worries they will harm us or himself. All he knows is, he barks loudly and fiercely and eventually it stops (or the gsrdeners eventually leave). I'm sure in his world he thinks he's chased them away...but I don't know for sure.

The other night he chased away a deer (it was on the other side of the fence) but when my husband came home -- he was all bouncy and jumpy...yelping. Now, was be telling my husband about chasing the deer or was he relieved that my husband wasn't attacked by the viscous deer roaming....or did he just want a treat?
You cannot know for sure with your own fellow human beings. Do you know if your son really has empathy, for example? What if he is sociopathic, and can simply simulate basic morality without truly believing it?

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10-12-2012, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2012 10:59 AM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(10-12-2012 07:21 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  The question is not animal consciousness. Arguing that they do not posses some form of consciousness is ridiculous. Animals form their own morality from their own form of empathy, how can they not be conscious?

I never said that animals don't. All I said was that humans often project their emotions onto animals.
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10-12-2012, 10:54 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(10-12-2012 07:24 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 10:03 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  It's like when I "talk for my dog." I don't really know what he's thinking...I may just be a warm body and meal. He might like me, but he might like my son better. He seems to worry...but I don't know if he really does. He hates fireworks, and thunder and the gsrdeners...but I don't know if he worries they will harm us or himself. All he knows is, he barks loudly and fiercely and eventually it stops (or the gsrdeners eventually leave). I'm sure in his world he thinks he's chased them away...but I don't know for sure.

The other night he chased away a deer (it was on the other side of the fence) but when my husband came home -- he was all bouncy and jumpy...yelping. Now, was be telling my husband about chasing the deer or was he relieved that my husband wasn't attacked by the viscous deer roaming....or did he just want a treat?
You cannot know for sure with your own fellow human beings. Do you know if your son really has empathy, for example? What if he is sociopathic, and can simply simulate basic morality without truly believing it?

I have two sons. One of them has autism -- teaching empathy isn't easy. Does he get it or is he just going through the motions? I really am not sure all the time.
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10-12-2012, 03:18 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(10-12-2012 10:40 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(10-12-2012 07:21 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  The question is not animal consciousness. Arguing that they do not posses some form of consciousness is ridiculous. Animals form their own morality from their own form of empathy, how can they not be conscious?

I never said that animals don't. All I said was that humans often project their emotions onto animals.
And I never said you did. However, it seems an all too common argument for the consumption of meat products is that animals do not possess consciousness. That is demonstrably false. I was simply making it clear for any other posters.
(10-12-2012 10:54 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(10-12-2012 07:24 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  You cannot know for sure with your own fellow human beings. Do you know if your son really has empathy, for example? What if he is sociopathic, and can simply simulate basic morality without truly believing it?

I have two sons. One of them has autism -- teaching empathy isn't easy. Does he get it or is he just going through the motions? I really am not sure all the time.
Precisely. Sometimes we also project our emotions among our own species. It is impossible to know precisely what each other is feeling, and is all based on assumption.

I also have respect for you for parenting an autistic child and I have a question or two. How did you discover your child was autistic and at what age?

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10-12-2012, 03:42 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
He is high functioning, so we're lucky in that regard. He was diagnosed rather late, it wasn't until he began school, we really saw the issues. It's hard to explain -- too lengthy to write the whole story. We always knew he was rather different from his older extremely verbal brother (you can't compare kids Yanno). But in mostly small ways we dismissed as shyness. He seemed a little delayed in something's but totally on target for other things. A further complication was that he was born nearly two months premature -- so was he delayed because of that or was there something else going?

I had read about autism online, read the listed warning signs, and really dismissed them because he only displayed maybe one of the classic symptoms. When he was formally tested, the list of questions they asked was very extensive -- much more so than I'd ever read...and it became glaringly evident. Today he's 13, in many typical classes and doing fairly well. Socially he's still slow -- there are many concepts he has a hard time understanding -- like reading expressions, sarcasm or jokes.

Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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