Animal Consciousness and Meat
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12-12-2012, 03:32 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(12-12-2012 02:37 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-12-2012 02:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Generally such knowledge would come earliest from a parental figure (not necessarily a parent). Do babies feel affection? It's doubtful. A newborn can feel contentment or joy. Affection? Again by your usage, the very word suggests innate emotion. For example, a baby might feel joy regardless of who is holding it. Just as a baby might cry no matter who is holding it -- we often project emotions onto them. Older babies do develop preferences over-time, but again those are learned and not innate
Good point.

(12-12-2012 02:09 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Since we both agree the ability to love or hate is not something we are born innately with -- where or how is such knowledge acquired if not learned?
To be honest, I don't know. As I see it, our current technology doesn't allow us to falsify or validate the hypothesis. Needless to say that I'm interested to hear whether or not you're able to propose a way of empirically testing it.

That's already been done in countless observances/case study and experiments. Results have been peer-reviewed -- and wildly accepted. Robert Plutchik's theory for example makes no mention of love or hate as basic emotions, he rather believes they are only concepts we apply with the word love or hate, which are learned based on our individual world view.
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12-12-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(12-12-2012 03:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That's already been done in countless observances/case study and experiments. Results have been peer-reviewed -- and wildly accepted. Robert Plutchik's theory for example makes no mention of love or hate as basic emotions, he rather believes they are only concepts we apply with the word love or hate, which are learned based on our individual world view.
Care to share your sources with me?

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12-12-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(11-12-2012 04:57 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(11-12-2012 03:56 PM)Vosur Wrote:  What an absurd claim. What definition of love and hate are you thinking of that makes you say this?

Love and hate are secondary emotions not inherent. A baby can feel a prime emotion such as joy, anger, fear, or grief for example but actual love and hate are both taught and come later. Most children learn what love and hate are from their parental figures (not necessarily from their parents). Eventually we discern what those words mean. We extrapolate their meaning based solely on our world view.

I see nothing absurd in the claim, this is very basic psychology.
Are you suggesting that nurture is the sole factor in these emotions?
Is there not a genetic pre disposition to the emotions expressed.
The words 'love' and 'hate' are also ambiguous;we need to consider,
also, how these states are expressed by the individual.
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12-12-2012, 03:47 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(12-12-2012 03:34 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-12-2012 03:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That's already been done in countless observances/case study and experiments. Results have been peer-reviewed -- and wildly accepted. Robert Plutchik's theory for example makes no mention of love or hate as basic emotions, he rather believes they are only concepts we apply with the word love or hate, which are learned based on our individual world view.
Care to share your sources with me?

You could start by googling Robert Plutchik and his paper on Emotion: Theory, research, and experience: Vol. 1. He also wrote a book and has been mentioned/quoted numerous times in text books.
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12-12-2012, 04:09 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2012 04:14 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(12-12-2012 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(12-12-2012 03:34 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Care to share your sources with me?

You could start by googling Robert Plutchik and his paper on Emotion: Theory, research, and experience: Vol. 1. He also wrote a book and has been mentioned/quoted numerous times in text books.
Okay, I'll have a look at his work and report back to you as soon as possible.

Edit: I can't seem to find an online download of that particular volume, but I found a German paper about his emotion theory. Oh well, that'll have to do.

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12-12-2012, 04:15 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(12-12-2012 03:41 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(11-12-2012 04:57 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Love and hate are secondary emotions not inherent. A baby can feel a prime emotion such as joy, anger, fear, or grief for example but actual love and hate are both taught and come later. Most children learn what love and hate are from their parental figures (not necessarily from their parents). Eventually we discern what those words mean. We extrapolate their meaning based solely on our world view.

I see nothing absurd in the claim, this is very basic psychology.
Are you suggesting that nurture is the sole factor in these emotions?
Is there not a genetic pre disposition to the emotions expressed.
The words 'love' and 'hate' are also ambiguous;we need to consider,
also, how these states are expressed by the individual.

In regard to love and hate, yes. The genetic or evolutionary componate is present in basic or innate emotions, as described by Plutchik and others; love and hate aren't included because they are based on ones view and are taught. "this is love what love is" or "this is what hate is"
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12-12-2012, 04:20 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(12-12-2012 03:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(12-12-2012 02:37 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Good point.

To be honest, I don't know. As I see it, our current technology doesn't allow us to falsify or validate the hypothesis. Needless to say that I'm interested to hear whether or not you're able to propose a way of empirically testing it.

That's already been done in countless observances/case study and experiments. Results have been peer-reviewed -- and wildly accepted. Robert Plutchik's theory for example makes no mention of love or hate as basic emotions, he rather believes they are only concepts we apply with the word love or hate, which are learned based on our individual world view.
Ah, so it was wildly accepted and those dissenting parties got very angry. Hardly a blanket recommendation!
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12-12-2012, 04:20 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(12-12-2012 04:09 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(12-12-2012 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  You could start by googling Robert Plutchik and his paper on Emotion: Theory, research, and experience: Vol. 1. He also wrote a book and has been mentioned/quoted numerous times in text books.
Okay, I'll have a look at his work and report back to you as soon as possible.

Edit: I can't seem to find an online download of that particular volume, but I found a German paper about his emotion theory. Oh well, that'll have to do.

Ok sure.
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12-12-2012, 05:49 PM
Re: Animal Consciousness and Meat
I eat meat no matter what.
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12-12-2012, 06:09 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(12-12-2012 04:20 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(12-12-2012 03:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That's already been done in countless observances/case study and experiments. Results have been peer-reviewed -- and wildly accepted. Robert Plutchik's theory for example makes no mention of love or hate as basic emotions, he rather believes they are only concepts we apply with the word love or hate, which are learned based on our individual world view.
Ah, so it was wildly accepted and those dissenting parties got very angry. Hardly a blanket recommendation!

I used Plutchik as one example. "those dissenting parties" I have no clue what you're talking about or what you're referring to. Please, if this interests you, feel free to read more about it. Based on what I've read and observed personally on this topic, love and hate are not innate emotions and are learned/acquired.

I became involved with this subject because I'm a mom of a child with autism. I wanted to understand why he can feel happy but not love. How he can get scared or angry but he doesn't understand hate. In fact what's really odd, it's like those words don't exist to him at all. He'll never say, "oh I love..." this or that. He never mentions "hate" either. I left him out of the discussion because he's my personal anecdote. However, he was the catalyst for my interest.

I'm only grateful that I could benefit from their research and theories to better understand just a little of why my son thinks the way he thinks. Dr Tony Attwood has done a lot to help parents and autistic children to better understand their own feelings. He's done work also on emotions. His view is slightly different, I think (if I'm remembering right) he believes in even fewer innate emotions, I believe they are joy, anger snd fear. The rest are acquired or learned by parents (authority figures) or experience -- or never at all.
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