Animal Consciousness and Meat
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23-12-2012, 02:53 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(22-12-2012 06:12 AM)Troll Wrote:  
(21-12-2012 05:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  More unsupported bullshit claims. Dodgy
But even of this was true-so what? Children grow up with natural fear of height, this was tested with 3 months old babies. Is working on the roof of the high building therefore immoral?
While this is an amusing point, I do not think the purpose of working on a roof is necessarily to take the life of another organism. Consider

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23-12-2012, 05:39 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(23-12-2012 02:53 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  While this is an amusing point, I do not think the purpose of working on a roof is necessarily to take the life of another organism. Consider
Just wanted to show that his argument makes no sense. The reason why killing is immoral isnt because babies dont do it.

While it s not easy to explain how exactly moral norms formed in our culture, it s very easy to show they are not given to us by babies, animals, Bible or god.

Trolls are holy race. Eduard Khil is our god.
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23-12-2012, 06:25 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(21-12-2012 05:44 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  Eating meat is not natural for us, being disgusted at the smell/taste of meat is normal- babies don't grow up with a desire for meat.

So. Much. Fail.

Humans are only human BECAUSE we ate animal fat so had enough energy for our big brains (mostly fat) to develop. Humans are omnivores and NEED animal flesh.

1. Heterodont dentition, incisors=meat-eater.
2. Inability to synthesize necessary amino acids and proteins that we must eat. Early man was not able to obtain a high enough protein consumption without meat, the cost to the body to obtain the nuts/fungi would exceed the intake.
3. Human evolution was driven by the need for more efficient hunting.
4. Young children don't like meat, it's an evolutionarily advantageous trait, like their resistance to new food. Until their mouths and jaws are better developed (4-5ish) they can't chew raw meat.

I'm on my mobile so I can't throw up a link but honestly, the first chapter of any human physiology textbook should provide sufficient evidence.

"Humans can't eat raw meat." Yes we can. Raw meat isn't dangerous, the bacteria that grow in it are. Our cave-dwelling forefathers had flora and fauna in the digestive tract that eliminated the threat but we discovered fire and started cooking out food. The flora and fauna that we had acquired when eating raw meat are now no longer acquired.

"Folks are fat" Yep, getting a steak now means sitting in a car, walking a few hundred feet and then sitting in a car again, not chasing the meat down. Lack of exercise is a bigger culprit than meat, and carbohydrate consumtion is no small part. Excessive meat consumption is an unfounded claim usually made by a "diet of the week" company.

Morality.
The basis for this claim is that animals feel pain. What is pain? A biochemical alert system. Plants have a better one than animals, so morally, eating is bad. There is no possible way to claim that eating a plant is more moral than eating an animal.

Source, a biologist.
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24-12-2012, 10:57 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
It's nice to see somebody backing up my points. Good going there, ScienceGeek.

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24-12-2012, 09:19 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(23-12-2012 06:25 PM)ScienceGeek2587 Wrote:  
(21-12-2012 05:44 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  Eating meat is not natural for us, being disgusted at the smell/taste of meat is normal- babies don't grow up with a desire for meat.

So. Much. Fail.

Humans are only human BECAUSE we ate animal fat so had enough energy for our big brains (mostly fat) to develop. Humans are omnivores and NEED animal flesh.

1. Heterodont dentition, incisors=meat-eater.
2. Inability to synthesize necessary amino acids and proteins that we must eat. Early man was not able to obtain a high enough protein consumption without meat, the cost to the body to obtain the nuts/fungi would exceed the intake.
3. Human evolution was driven by the need for more efficient hunting.
4. Young children don't like meat, it's an evolutionarily advantageous trait, like their resistance to new food. Until their mouths and jaws are better developed (4-5ish) they can't chew raw meat.

I'm on my mobile so I can't throw up a link but honestly, the first chapter of any human physiology textbook should provide sufficient evidence.

"Humans can't eat raw meat." Yes we can. Raw meat isn't dangerous, the bacteria that grow in it are. Our cave-dwelling forefathers had flora and fauna in the digestive tract that eliminated the threat but we discovered fire and started cooking out food. The flora and fauna that we had acquired when eating raw meat are now no longer acquired.

"Folks are fat" Yep, getting a steak now means sitting in a car, walking a few hundred feet and then sitting in a car again, not chasing the meat down. Lack of exercise is a bigger culprit than meat, and carbohydrate consumtion is no small part. Excessive meat consumption is an unfounded claim usually made by a "diet of the week" company.

Morality.
The basis for this claim is that animals feel pain. What is pain? A biochemical alert system. Plants have a better one than animals, so morally, eating is bad. There is no possible way to claim that eating a plant is more moral than eating an animal.

Source, a biologist.
You must base your statistics and nutritional recommendations on the government, that's interesting... Do you trust everything the Government says?

I have seen many obese meat eaters, but literally none, zero, nada overweight high carb raw vegans. Myself included, I eat 3000-6000 calories a day, and over half a kilo of carbs, yet I am lean and my blood tests show perfect results. I couldn't get overweight if I tried. Why is this?
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25-12-2012, 07:52 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
Oh, hey I$I, what're y-- Oh, sorry! It's just FZU, again sorry. My mistake.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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25-12-2012, 03:39 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
Oh my dear FZU,

I'm a Phile, and I don't trust anything the government says. The USDA has some things right, but most of it wrong. As I mentioned, what I said was basic biological knowledge. Again, as I said, eating too much of anything coupled with a sedentary life will lead to obesity. It is a strawman argument to say meat causes obesity when that is demonstrably not true as there are plenty of meat-eaters that aren't obese.
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25-12-2012, 07:38 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
What ScienceGeek said.

As for morality, I've always thought it was just that a lot of more militant vegetarians/vegans like to use emotional blackmail and tell you that cows and chickens are cute, and they'll be sad if you eat them. I have yet to hear anyone defend insects in the same way, or even fish or reptiles.

Quote: I couldn't get overweight if I tried. Why is this?
High metabolism? Intestinal parasites? I know a lot of people who run marathons and eat meat, drink soda, have pizza and potato chips. I know fat vegetarians. My anthropology professor spent a lot of time with tribal people who ate a lot of meat, and weren't fat. There is not a 1:1 relationship between the exact foods you eat and your health and weight. There are a lot more variables.
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25-12-2012, 08:02 PM (This post was last modified: 25-12-2012 08:12 PM by FZUMedia.)
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(25-12-2012 07:38 PM)amyb Wrote:  What ScienceGeek said.

As for morality, I've always thought it was just that a lot of more militant vegetarians/vegans like to use emotional blackmail and tell you that cows and chickens are cute, and they'll be sad if you eat them. I have yet to hear anyone defend insects in the same way, or even fish or reptiles.

Quote: I couldn't get overweight if I tried. Why is this?
High metabolism? Intestinal parasites? I know a lot of people who run marathons and eat meat, drink soda, have pizza and potato chips. I know fat vegetarians. My anthropology professor spent a lot of time with tribal people who ate a lot of meat, and weren't fat. There is not a 1:1 relationship between the exact foods you eat and your health and weight. There are a lot more variables.
I was overweight when I was eating 2000-3500 calories of junk foody/meat diet, when I was around 14 or so- although now I eat double the amount in calories from what I used to, I ate 2 kilos of rice today, half a kilo of patatoes, various steamed vegetables, 4l of fruit juice and some dates, I have been doing this for a year now. I have a very low body fat %. I do occasional exercise, not that much more than when I was overweight. So I can get fat pretty easily, just like anyone else- I just cant get fat on this diet.

The problem with tribes, is that they are flat out lying lol. Tribal people claim/show to eat more meat than they would otherwise, since it is seen as a luxury/spiritual thing, that makes them stronger, smarter and all of that in their culture. The best people to look at are oriental countries, they eat a lot of food- a lot. If you have ever been to China, Taiwan, Malaysia they are always eating in breaks at work, lots of rice, local fruit, etc- very low fat. People call this 'genetics' yet when they come over here and eat the local food they get bigger haha- some mystery, I can't figure it out.

@ScienceGeek

I should be morbidly obese then! I eat upwards of 40,000 calories a week and do 1-3 hrs exercise in that week.

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25-12-2012, 08:22 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
As for tribal people, he wasn't going by what he said, he was going by what his observed them eating, since he was there to study them. But that's not my point. My point is that a lot of people eat meat in moderation and are not overweight. This is also true in the US.

Yes, the country has gotten heavier, but I'd be quicker to attribute it to being more sedentary and eating larger portions than to say everybody should stop eating all meat. Actually, I'd be quicker to blame high calorie drinks than meat. As for Asian countries, look at what they're drinking. Plain oolong tea doesn't have calories (negligible amount, if any), but many Americans wash down their meals with a large Coke with 300 calories or so and no nutritional value, and then sip on cokes all day. Yes, nutrition plays a role in health, but I just don't think the issue is meat vs. no meat.
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