Animal Consciousness and Meat
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09-12-2012, 08:14 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 07:49 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  But from what I have read, 98% of an ape's diet is ruffage/fruit - 2% comes from insects. It is our closest ancestor, and they have almost an identical digestive system to ours.



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09-12-2012, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2012 08:19 AM by Free Thought.)
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 07:49 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  But from what I have read, 98% of an ape's diet is ruffage/fruit - 2% comes from insects. It is our closest ancestor, and they have almost an identical digestive system to ours.
First of all, which Ape are you referring too? Humans are apes too remember.

Humans and other apes are of different tribes and genus, Humans belong to the genus Homo within tribe Hominini in the family Hominidae.
Where as a chimpanzee for example resides in the Pan genus within the Panini tribe inside the family Hominidae.
Our sibling species (the Great Apes and other species within the family Hominidea) broke off at different points, and thus their diets differ from ours, due to their habitats and points of divergence, though Australopithecus is commonly seen as the separation point between Humans and other great apes a la the Chimpanzee.


Those in the Australopithecus genus (from which we split) and it's contemporaries ate a wide variety of meats and fruits and the divergent Homo genus (us human species a la H. Sapiens, H. Habilis, H. Rudolfensis etc) developed an increased meat consumption, likely due to climatic changes, migration and other limiting factors decreasing the availability of edible plant matter.

The diets of our sister species in no way effect or reflect our own species due to our widely different habitats and divergent points and subsequent dietary needs.

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09-12-2012, 09:03 AM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2012 09:10 AM by FZUMedia.)
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 08:14 AM)bemore Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 07:49 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  But from what I have read, 98% of an ape's diet is ruffage/fruit - 2% comes from insects. It is our closest ancestor, and they have almost an identical digestive system to ours.


Apes do eat other apes, but not for energy. It's more of a display of dominance as tribes in the papua New Guinea eat opposing tribes brains. Apes are very similiar in that behaviour, it's not a regular staple to say the least.






"But from what I have read, 98% of an ape's diet is ruffage/fruit - 2% comes from insects. It is our closest ancestor, and they have almost an identical digestive system to ours.


First of all, which Ape are you referring too? Humans are apes too remember.

Humans and other apes are of different tribes and genus, Humans belong to the genus Homo within tribe Hominini in the family Hominidae.
Where as a chimpanzee for example resides in the Pan genus within the Panini tribe inside the family Hominidae.
Our sibling species (the Great Apes and other species within the family Hominidea) broke off at different points, and thus their diets differ from ours, due to their habitats and points of divergence, though Australopithecus is commonly seen as the separation point between Humans and other great apes a la the Chimpanzee.


Those in the Australopithecus genus (from which we split) and it's contemporaries ate a wide variety of meats and fruits and the divergent Homo genus (us human species a la H. Sapiens, H. Habilis, H. Rudolfensis etc) developed an increased meat consumption, likely due to climatic changes, migration and other limiting factors decreasing the availability of edible plant matter.

The diets of our sister species in no way effect or reflect our own species due to our widely different habitats and divergent points and subsequent dietary needs."

I don't understand this... If you look at our digestive system it does not reflect an omnivore, we have long intestines like herbivores, if we had shorter intestines prototypical of an omnivore I would consider your theory, but that's all it is, a theory. The evidence shows literally in our organs. We don't produce our own vitamin C like omnivores do, hence why we are only healthy if we regularly consume fruit- omnivores don't need to do that- we do. we can only digest plant material efficiently because are digestive system is best suited for it.
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09-12-2012, 09:05 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
Apes are also the only animals (as far as I know) who kill for no reason, other than violence.

Can't see how they are the best role models...

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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09-12-2012, 09:31 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 09:03 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  I don't understand this... If you look at our digestive system it does not reflect an omnivore, we have long intestines like herbivores, if we had shorter intestines prototypical of an omnivore I would consider your theory, but that's all it is, a theory. The evidence shows literally in our organs. We don't produce our own vitamin C like omnivores do, hence why we are only healthy if we regularly consume fruit- omnivores don't need to do that- we do. we can only digest plant material efficiently because are digestive system is best suited for it.
It's always helpful to take a look in a dictionary.

omnivore
Syllabification: (om·ni·vore)
Pronunciation: /ˈämnəˌvôr/
noun
an animal or person that eats food of both plant and animal origin

The stereotype of Vegans who deny that humans are omnivorous seems to be rather common. I wonder why that is. Consider

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09-12-2012, 09:51 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 09:03 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  I don't understand this... If you look at our digestive system it does not reflect an omnivore, we have long intestines like herbivores, if we had shorter intestines prototypical of an omnivore I would consider your theory, but that's all it is, a theory. The evidence shows literally in our organs. We don't produce our own vitamin C like omnivores do, hence why we are only healthy if we regularly consume fruit- omnivores don't need to do that- we do. we can only digest plant material efficiently because are digestive system is best suited for it.

Like I said, we came from a balanced diet predecessor, which itself came from a herbivorous predecessor, which explains our digestive system, which while based initially on herbavoric diet, adapted to suit a slow increase in meat consumption which lead the the mixed diet of Australopithecus, from which Homo species derived a better digestive system for handling meat and Homo ate more meat likely due to previously described dietary restrictions.
We cannot unevolve traits from our predecessors, all we can do is adapt them, which is what we have done in terms of our digestive system, which now harbours some evolutionary left overs which serve no purpose in our more meat centric diets.

Humans lack the ability to produce vitamin C due to a mutation in the "GULO (gulonolactone oxidase) gene"which result in the inability to synthesis the protein. This in no way is caused by our predecessor species diets. But is due to random mutation. The mutation is seen in many species with different dietary habits such as mice, bats (omnivorous) other dry nosed primates, and herbivorous guinea pigs which prevent them from producing the vitamin in the same way.


Also, don't misuse the word "theory" to mean conjecture on my part. Tooth enamel samples taken from early hominid species have been taken and show our ancestors and sister species ate varied, omnivorous diets, and modern human and older Homo jaws and teeth show a strong adaptation for meat consumption. (teeth changes to accommodate tearing and grinding of meat and softer fruit like plants, the jaw changed to accommodate this as well providing less grinding power common in herbivores for example)

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09-12-2012, 09:54 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 09:05 AM)Vera Wrote:  Apes are also the only animals (as far as I know) who kill for no reason, other than violence.

Can't see how they are the best role models...
There are many animals that kill for reasons other than for food or protection. Ie "killing for fun".

Have a look at the orca. It's an excellent example of an animal that appears to kill for no other reason than for fun. Interesting stuff.

So I just want to get this straight.......are we questioning whether humans are omnivorous?

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-SR
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09-12-2012, 09:55 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
We aren't Stark.

FZUMedia is.



Well, I'll pick this up in a few hours. Have fun buys and girls. I'll try to get back to you later on FZU

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09-12-2012, 10:00 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 09:54 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  There are many animals that kill for reasons other than for food or protection. Ie "killing for fun".
Have a look at the orca. It's an excellent example of an animal that appears to kill for no other reason than for fun. Interesting stuff.
Didn't know about the orcas. Only knew that some apes kill for fun and out of pure aggression. Not bonobos, though... Now they can teach us a lot.

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09-12-2012, 10:04 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
Vera, if I remember correctly from Frans De Waals speech on animal morality, he said something along the lines that bonobos solve everything with sex. Is that what you are referring too?

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