Animal Consciousness and Meat
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09-12-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 10:04 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Vera, if I remember correctly from Frans De Waals speech on animal morality, he said something along the lines that bonobos solve everything with sex. Is that what you are referring too?
Abso-fucking-lutely.

Seriously though, they are among the most peaceful apes, though, sadly, can still be violent towards those who are not members of their communities.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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09-12-2012, 11:02 AM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2012 11:07 AM by FZUMedia.)
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 09:51 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 09:03 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  I don't understand this... If you look at our digestive system it does not reflect an omnivore, we have long intestines like herbivores, if we had shorter intestines prototypical of an omnivore I would consider your theory, but that's all it is, a theory. The evidence shows literally in our organs. We don't produce our own vitamin C like omnivores do, hence why we are only healthy if we regularly consume fruit- omnivores don't need to do that- we do. we can only digest plant material efficiently because are digestive system is best suited for it.

Like I said, we came from a balanced diet predecessor, which itself came from a herbivorous predecessor, which explains our digestive system, which while based initially on herbavoric diet, adapted to suit a slow increase in meat consumption which lead the the mixed diet of Australopithecus, from which Homo species derived a better digestive system for handling meat and Homo ate more meat likely due to previously described dietary restrictions.
We cannot unevolve traits from our predecessors, all we can do is adapt them, which is what we have done in terms of our digestive system, which now harbours some evolutionary left overs which serve no purpose in our more meat centric diets.

Humans lack the ability to produce vitamin C due to a mutation in the "GULO (gulonolactone oxidase) gene"which result in the inability to synthesis the protein. This in no way is caused by our predecessor species diets. But is due to random mutation. The mutation is seen in many species with different dietary habits such as mice, bats (omnivorous) other dry nosed primates, and herbivorous guinea pigs which prevent them from producing the vitamin in the same way.


Also, don't misuse the word "theory" to mean conjecture on my part. Tooth enamel samples taken from early hominid species have been taken and show our ancestors and sister species ate varied, omnivorous diets, and modern human and older Homo jaws and teeth show a strong adaptation for meat consumption. (teeth changes to accommodate tearing and grinding of meat and softer fruit like plants, the jaw changed to accommodate this as well providing less grinding power common in herbivores for example)
Again all theory, I care about results, not what people say. We have identical digestion systems to apes, until you can prove otherwise I will discredit your theories as to why humans are naturally meat eaters.

You don't even need to get that technical to realise that humans are naturally herbivores, it only takes a moments thought, for example;

I eat 3k-5k calories a day in fruit/vegetables and have a low body fat % and perfect scores in blood tests- can you imagine if I ate this amount from meat? I would likely die, not just be fat, but I would actually be in mortal danger. Whereas I can eat 20-35 bananas a day and feel loose as a goose and ready to go. In fact almost all athletes have a primarily plant based diet, low in fat. I know that Usain Bolt and Yohan Blake claim to eat 15 bananas a day and other fruits as a staple. Athletes generally eat meat off season every now and then for a treat, but the staple is fruit- so I think that's important.
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09-12-2012, 11:22 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
Ok, so an athletes eating habits are better evidence than the fact that we can digest meat?

Also, just so ya know, when you ask someone to prove that an apes digestive system isn't identical to a humans, you are confusing who bears the burden of proof.

Just because we can be healthy without meat does NOT mean we are not omnivores. Our entire digestive system, from teeth to rectum, are designed to handle both meat and vegetation. I think you are confusing the ability to digest meat with the necessity to consume it. Meat is an excellent source of many nutrients that humans need. We are able to draw these nutrients from the meat through digestion. Does that mean we must eat meat? Of course not. Does it make us omnivores? You bet your ass it does.

Just visiting.

-SR
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09-12-2012, 11:27 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 11:22 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Ok, so an athletes eating habits are better evidence than the fact that we can digest meat?

Also, just so ya know, when you ask someone to prove that an apes digestive system isn't identical to a humans, you are confusing who bears the burden of proof.

Just because we can be healthy without meat does NOT mean we are not omnivores. Our entire digestive system, from teeth to rectum, are designed to handle both meat and vegetation. I think you are confusing the ability to digest meat with the necessity to consume it. Meat is an excellent source of many nutrients that humans need. We are able to draw these nutrients from the meat through digestion. Does that mean we must eat meat? Of course not. Does it make us omnivores? You bet your ass it does.
If you think meat is healthy then you should have no problem eating it in mass quantities right? Eat unaltered cooked meat for a month then come back to me- I will eat unaltered and uncooked fruit for a month. Deal?

Or don't, I don't want to be sued for manslaughter or w/e.
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09-12-2012, 11:34 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 11:27 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 11:22 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Ok, so an athletes eating habits are better evidence than the fact that we can digest meat?

Also, just so ya know, when you ask someone to prove that an apes digestive system isn't identical to a humans, you are confusing who bears the burden of proof.

Just because we can be healthy without meat does NOT mean we are not omnivores. Our entire digestive system, from teeth to rectum, are designed to handle both meat and vegetation. I think you are confusing the ability to digest meat with the necessity to consume it. Meat is an excellent source of many nutrients that humans need. We are able to draw these nutrients from the meat through digestion. Does that mean we must eat meat? Of course not. Does it make us omnivores? You bet your ass it does.
Eat unaltered cooked meat for a month then come back to me- I will eat unaltered and uncooked fruit for a month. Deal?

Or don't, I don't want to be sued for manslaughter or w/e.
Lol, you seriously picked the wrong guy dude. I eat raw meat. OFTEN. And I'm really not tryin to be a dick here. But once again, you are getting confused. I'm not saying humans can live on meat alone. I am saying we are omnivores, meaning we are capable of drawing essential nutrients from both plant and animal matter.

...or maybe you're just looking to argue, and that's why you keep twisting what people say?

Just visiting.

-SR
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09-12-2012, 11:39 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 11:34 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 11:27 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  Eat unaltered cooked meat for a month then come back to me- I will eat unaltered and uncooked fruit for a month. Deal?

Or don't, I don't want to be sued for manslaughter or w/e.
Lol, you seriously picked the wrong guy dude. I eat raw meat. OFTEN. And I'm really not tryin to be a dick here. But once again, you are getting confused. I'm not saying humans can live on meat alone. I am saying we are omnivores, meaning we are capable of drawing essential nutrients from both plant and animal matter.

...or maybe you're just looking to argue, and that's why you keep twisting what people say?
Humans can't eat meat by itself, but they sure can with plant matter. That should tell you something right there.
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09-12-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 11:39 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 11:34 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Lol, you seriously picked the wrong guy dude. I eat raw meat. OFTEN. And I'm really not tryin to be a dick here. But once again, you are getting confused. I'm not saying humans can live on meat alone. I am saying we are omnivores, meaning we are capable of drawing essential nutrients from both plant and animal matter.

...or maybe you're just looking to argue, and that's why you keep twisting what people say?
Humans can't eat meat by itself, but they sure can with plant matter. That should tell you something right there.
Should it? Because it doesn't.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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09-12-2012, 11:50 AM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 11:39 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 11:34 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Lol, you seriously picked the wrong guy dude. I eat raw meat. OFTEN. And I'm really not tryin to be a dick here. But once again, you are getting confused. I'm not saying humans can live on meat alone. I am saying we are omnivores, meaning we are capable of drawing essential nutrients from both plant and animal matter.

...or maybe you're just looking to argue, and that's why you keep twisting what people say?
Humans can't eat meat by itself, but they sure can with plant matter. That should tell you something right there.
Yes, what it tells me is that we can digest both meat and vegetable. Perhaps one is more easily digested than the other (although my Inuit friends would gladly demonstrate that an all meat diet is indeed a diet humans live on) but that doesn't change that we are omnivores.

I'm not trying to convince you to eat meat. I'm not saying a veg or vegan diet is unhealthy just because it omits meat. I'm not saying someone can't be perfectly healthy without ever having had meat touch their lips.

What I am saying, is that the evidence that we are omnivores is indisputable. We can digest both meat and vegetable. That is conclusive evidence that we are omnivores. Period.

Just visiting.

-SR
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09-12-2012, 12:59 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 11:50 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 11:39 AM)FZUMedia Wrote:  Humans can't eat meat by itself, but they sure can with plant matter. That should tell you something right there.
Yes, what it tells me is that we can digest both meat and vegetable. Perhaps one is more easily digested than the other (although my Inuit friends would gladly demonstrate that an all meat diet is indeed a diet humans live on) but that doesn't change that we are omnivores.

I'm not trying to convince you to eat meat. I'm not saying a veg or vegan diet is unhealthy just because it omits meat. I'm not saying someone can't be perfectly healthy without ever having had meat touch their lips.

What I am saying, is that the evidence that we are omnivores is indisputable. We can digest both meat and vegetable. That is conclusive evidence that we are omnivores. Period.
Well you are wrong, since I have an optimal BMI and perfect results in my blood test, I haven't eaten meat and dairy in 6 or so years. So the doctors are wrong, some intern spilled coffee on the computer?

What's the Eskimo projected age? I haven't seen any Eskimo or all meat diet athletes either, have you?
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09-12-2012, 01:04 PM
RE: Animal Consciousness and Meat
(09-12-2012 12:59 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 11:50 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Yes, what it tells me is that we can digest both meat and vegetable. Perhaps one is more easily digested than the other (although my Inuit friends would gladly demonstrate that an all meat diet is indeed a diet humans live on) but that doesn't change that we are omnivores.

I'm not trying to convince you to eat meat. I'm not saying a veg or vegan diet is unhealthy just because it omits meat. I'm not saying someone can't be perfectly healthy without ever having had meat touch their lips.

What I am saying, is that the evidence that we are omnivores is indisputable. We can digest both meat and vegetable. That is conclusive evidence that we are omnivores. Period.
Well you are wrong, since I have an optimal BMI and perfect results in my blood test, I haven't eaten meat and dairy in 6 or so years. So the doctors are wrong, some intern spilled coffee on the computer?


What's the Eskimo projected age? I haven't seen any Eskimo or all meat athletes either, have you?
I, I, I - since when are you the ultimate proof for anything? Geez.

And what if Stark also has an optimal BMI and perfect results (which is, what exactly? You aced them? Did you get grades?)

You're not doing vegetarians and vegans any favours by shoving your particular diet in our faces.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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