Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
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12-09-2014, 07:49 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2014 07:58 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
(10-09-2014 07:58 AM)Anna Wrote:  
(05-09-2014 02:51 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  This statement right here indicates to me that you actually don't know a lot about dogs.

Dogs can and will attack for any reason, and provocation is not required.

The dog that mauled me ran across a street (I was jogging on the other side), not even looking at him when he jumped on my back.

I've also worked with a lot of dogs with behavioral problems with my clients when I trained dogs for a living.

One minute a wagging tail, a "smiling" dog, a bite the next. Nothing changed.

The real issue is that just like all cognitive creatures, we have differing levels of empathy between us. Some dogs are more empathetic, can read their humans better. That's why these dogs are generally working dogs. Some dogs don't have as high of empathy as they should. It's not that they are mean spirited, but they just don't care what happens to their humans.

Once again, the dog that attacked you was either crazy or untrained. Both conditions demanding human attention.
I am talking about the sane dogs that live with us. And if a pet dog attacks you, it's the humans who didn't train him well enough. People train their dogs to attack, believing they'll only attack an intruder, but they forget that if a dog is being pleased to attack anything, he will not much care who it is he's attacking, even if it's you. This behavior is reinforced in the dog by training.
And even when I am talking about strays, I live in a country where there are strays at every corner, no one even pets them but there are hardly any cases of dog attacks here. Because these strays have learnt to live with us and they know if they don't get in our way we won't do that either. A dog attacking a jogger is an example of a mentally unstable dog and he shouldn't be left outside, who let him out?

Again, Ana. You don't seem to know a lot about dogs. Dogs aren't "crazy". And this dog wasn't untrained. It was frustrated. And I was prey. Pure and simple.

Mentally unstable dog? No, my dear. Just no.

If you don't know anything about dog behavior, don't try to speculate what a dog is "thinking" or whether it's "crazy"

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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12-09-2014, 10:49 PM
RE: Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
I agree with the op, there are way too any people that seem to think animals can do no wrong. I like animals, at least the kinds that make good pets. My dog will put up with a crazy amount of abuse from my two year old but I still don't let them interact if there isn't an adult around to watch them because my dog would tear my kid apart if the inclination came upon her. I really don't think she will, she is way too submissive and docile, but better safe than sorry.
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13-09-2014, 01:23 AM
RE: Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
(12-09-2014 06:18 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(12-09-2014 12:44 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Dom, the argument could also be made that a bear is just a bear or a bobcat is just a bobcat or a lion is just a lion. Yes, these animals are "just these animals." Unfortunately, nature dictates that "just being these animals" means ripping someone apart on occasion. Animals - despite what you seem to think - don't operate only by our command. They can, sure. But not entirely. Sometimes a lion or a bear or a dog acts like a lion or a bear or a dog, and it's not my fault or your fault or society's fault for not training it not to.

Yes, I blame a dog for being a dog. Just as I'd blame a bear for being a bear or a lion for being a lion or the Ebola virus for being the fucking Ebola virus. Can you imagine the argument? "The virus is just a virus; I blame geneticists for not programing it not to infect us."

Had you had the pits from puppyhood on, and had you spent a year until they were formed training them to ignore each other

That awkward moment when that's exactly what happened and it made zero difference because savage animals are savage animals. Dodgy


Anyway, I don't seem to be making a dent on this issue, so I'm gonna drop it. Yes, dogs are just dogs and bears are just bears, and that's precisely the problem. But some won't see that, so, I tap out.

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13-09-2014, 05:59 AM
RE: Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
(13-09-2014 01:23 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(12-09-2014 06:18 AM)Dom Wrote:  Had you had the pits from puppyhood on, and had you spent a year until they were formed training them to ignore each other

That awkward moment when that's exactly what happened and it made zero difference because savage animals are savage animals. Dodgy


Anyway, I don't seem to be making a dent on this issue, so I'm gonna drop it. Yes, dogs are just dogs and bears are just bears, and that's precisely the problem. But some won't see that, so, I tap out.

I'll never for the life of me understand people's love for this breed. There is an interesting opinion written by a pediatric cranofacial plastic surgeon who states that the majority of attacks that need his services are from pit bulls. He describes the aftermath of their attacks.

Pits are not more prone to attack than any other breed. All dogs can and will attack. But their attacks are so different in nature it's barely a comparison. Pit attacks go on and on and on.
Pits also lie about their mental state. Their warnings are so subtle the untrained eye wouldn't notice it. That's why the majority of dog attacks by pits are explained by the victim or witnesses that the attack "came out of nowhere."


http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/.../11709481/

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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13-09-2014, 06:06 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2014 06:09 PM by Dom.)
RE: Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
(13-09-2014 05:59 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(13-09-2014 01:23 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  That awkward moment when that's exactly what happened and it made zero difference because savage animals are savage animals. Dodgy


Anyway, I don't seem to be making a dent on this issue, so I'm gonna drop it. Yes, dogs are just dogs and bears are just bears, and that's precisely the problem. But some won't see that, so, I tap out.

I'll never for the life of me understand people's love for this breed. There is an interesting opinion written by a pediatric cranofacial plastic surgeon who states that the majority of attacks that need his services are from pit bulls. He describes the aftermath of their attacks.

Pits are not more prone to attack than any other breed. All dogs can and will attack. But their attacks are so different in nature it's barely a comparison. Pit attacks go on and on and on.
Pits also lie about their mental state. Their warnings are so subtle the untrained eye wouldn't notice it. That's why the majority of dog attacks by pits are explained by the victim or witnesses that the attack "came out of nowhere."


http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/.../11709481/


Yeah, people love pits because they are so very loving and comical that they find it hard to imagine the mood can change in a second and a vicious attack can occur.

Back in the day there would be "breed benefactors" adopting the breed and spending many generations breeding the fault out by only choosing the very mellowest animals for reproduction. It was a costly proposition and the general population wasn't really breeding purebreds. But nowadays everyone is a breeder long as they can get two dogs together, and disposition, health and other important traits aren't given any thought at all.

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13-09-2014, 06:12 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2014 06:18 PM by Dom.)
RE: Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
(12-09-2014 10:49 PM)Woefatt Wrote:  I agree with the op, there are way too any people that seem to think animals can do no wrong. I like animals, at least the kinds that make good pets. My dog will put up with a crazy amount of abuse from my two year old but I still don't let them interact if there isn't an adult around to watch them because my dog would tear my kid apart if the inclination came upon her. I really don't think she will, she is way too submissive and docile, but better safe than sorry.

Allowing a two year old to handle a dog is a dangerous proposition always... dogs will allow baby creatures to abuse them, but they will also correct them if needed. You don't want your dog to give a benevolent correction to your kid - it could be a disaster for all involved. Namely the dog will take the baby's head in it's mouth and wait for it to stop moving - a procedure a puppy will understand and handle correctly,but a human baby won't. Nasty, disfiguring results can happen... and the dog will have meant no harm is this case.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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13-09-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
(13-09-2014 01:23 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(12-09-2014 06:18 AM)Dom Wrote:  Had you had the pits from puppyhood on, and had you spent a year until they were formed training them to ignore each other

That awkward moment when that's exactly what happened and it made zero difference because savage animals are savage animals. Dodgy


Anyway, I don't seem to be making a dent on this issue, so I'm gonna drop it. Yes, dogs are just dogs and bears are just bears, and that's precisely the problem. But some won't see that, so, I tap out.

Not knowing what you consider appropriate training aiming to go against a dog's innate drives, I can't comment either.

I do know though that you chose to put two animals bred to fight each other in a situation where they had to deal with exactly that situation and consistently behave in a way contrary to their innate instincts.

You were asking for trouble, and you likely fell for one of the many popular misconceptions people have about animals.

And that is the point where our minds meet - people in general are quite unrealistic in their evaluation and interpretation of animal behaviors.

Where our minds don't meet is that, as the species with the superior reasoning abilities, I hold people responsible while you hold the animal responsible.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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13-09-2014, 08:27 PM
RE: Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
(13-09-2014 06:27 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(13-09-2014 01:23 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  That awkward moment when that's exactly what happened and it made zero difference because savage animals are savage animals. Dodgy


Anyway, I don't seem to be making a dent on this issue, so I'm gonna drop it. Yes, dogs are just dogs and bears are just bears, and that's precisely the problem. But some won't see that, so, I tap out.

Not knowing what you consider appropriate training aiming to go against a dog's innate drives, I can't comment either.

I do know though that you chose to put two animals bred to fight each other in a situation where they had to deal with exactly that situation and consistently behave in a way contrary to their innate instincts.

You were asking for trouble, and you likely fell for one of the many popular misconceptions people have about animals.

And that is the point where our minds meet - people in general are quite unrealistic in their evaluation and interpretation of animal behaviors.

Where our minds don't meet is that, as the species with the superior reasoning abilities, I hold people responsible while you hold the animal responsible.

And neither of you is correct.
Only humans can be 'blamed', but in some dogs aggression cannot be controlled regardless of the training.

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13-09-2014, 09:25 PM
RE: Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
I actually read an article last week concerning dogs that are dangerous by adding up the number of attacks or fatalities. Pits led the pack, far and wide, for the most dangerous of dogs. Most breeds had 1 to 10 accidents yearly, while pits were in the hundreds. The pit bull haters aren't hating without a good reason. Some people just aren't dog people, but can you really blame them for being nervous when certain breeds start killing babies, other people's animals and mauling whoever they feel like?

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14-09-2014, 05:39 AM
RE: Animal Lovers (And why I can't stand them)
(13-09-2014 08:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-09-2014 06:27 PM)Dom Wrote:  Not knowing what you consider appropriate training aiming to go against a dog's innate drives, I can't comment either.

I do know though that you chose to put two animals bred to fight each other in a situation where they had to deal with exactly that situation and consistently behave in a way contrary to their innate instincts.

You were asking for trouble, and you likely fell for one of the many popular misconceptions people have about animals.

And that is the point where our minds meet - people in general are quite unrealistic in their evaluation and interpretation of animal behaviors.

Where our minds don't meet is that, as the species with the superior reasoning abilities, I hold people responsible while you hold the animal responsible.

And neither of you is correct.
Only humans can be 'blamed', but in some dogs aggression cannot be controlled regardless of the training.

I do agree, and this holds true whenever you are "training against the grain", i.e. training for something that goes completely against the breed's innate instincts. Not every trainer has the endurance and knowledge to do it, and a percentage of dogs will not be able to control themselves no matter how much control they have been taught.

Re. Pits - I think it should be illegal to breed them.

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