Another Abortion thread.
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09-01-2012, 09:52 PM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2012 10:00 PM by w0rmwood.)
RE: Another Abortion thread.
Nevertheless, it is an opinion and an issue where views are strongly affected by religion and discussing them is only negative if we start talking about how we're going to try to legislate/mandate things in the country regarding it. I would think, on these forums, that mostly good can come from these discussions. While you may believe (and I tend to agree) that the decision solely lies with women, discussion does not. It most certainly is not a discussion off limits to men, and such a thought is itself sexist. I will qualify that with saying that I don't believe your intent was sexist at all, because I get what you were saying. Pulling out the "sexist" label tends to start flame wars, and that is definitely not my intent. Gay marriage is not a discussion for only homosexuals to have. Would it not be helpful to have straight individuals working for gay rights and men working for women's rights?

Squelching the discussion only prevents such support from forming.

You could say every topic here has been discussed over and over. There are plenty of new members, people continue to discuss subjects debated long ago. They're not going anywhere. If you're tired of the topic there is no obligation for you to join in, and I don't mean that with disrespect, but the short and "shut up about it" implications of your comments aren't adding to it.

In all honesty, I'm have varying thoughts about it, as I stated before and I'd appreciate input that isn't condescending. Shutting the discussion off certainly doesn't help me see it from another perspective.

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09-01-2012, 09:57 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
Will reply later as I'm extremely busy at work currently.

Humankind Dodgy (a total misnomer)
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09-01-2012, 10:05 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
As the we say in Egypt, Enta bet2ol kalam sa7 ya gada3 Big Grin
I agree with you w0rmwood, the decision lies with women but the discussion does not,
same goes for straight people and gay people, white people and black people back in the days before civil rights
Imagine if Abraham Lincolin never got involved?
Or that straight republican politician in new york never got involved, i forget his name
but the final vote rested on him and he said something along the lines of
"who am i to say that someone does not have the same right as i have with my wife..."
and gay marriage was legalised in New York.

Heres the video
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-ju...happy-gays

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09-01-2012, 11:12 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
I hate abortion and I think that a foetus is a person. But I'm pro-choice… actually fuck that, pro-choice is a brand, it means nothing… I understand the importance of being able to terminate pregnancies.

Abortion is a horrific practice. I don't know a single woman that has had an abortion that hasn't been deeply scarred by it. I wish there was a better procedure. But it's what we have. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

The main reason I think a foetus is a person is because the whole notion is the BS product of the argument. Both sides are served by humanising or dehumanising the foetus. So skip all that crap. Person, not a person, who cares... Show me one couple that wanted a child that wasn't devastated when they miscarried in the first trimester. That doesn't happen over nothing.

I think that abortion is necessary, but it's shitty as all fucking hell. I have room for both of those concepts.

And while no one can force a woman to do something with/to their body, I'm sickened by the notion that the father has no say in the matter. Men aren't robots. We're not.

At the end of the day, when you cut through all of the spin, it's a question of three lives. That's significant. It should never be taken for granted.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-01-2012, 11:19 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.

Hmm you've shined a different light on this issue for me on this...
you've given me a lot to think about, thanks Shy

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10-01-2012, 12:01 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
I do want to add something to this.

I understand that an all-male discussion of a topic that 99.9% affects females can be something scary to see, because it happens in Washington. A bunch of rich straight males trying to tell everyone else how to live is completely undesirable and it happens all the time. I do not want my posts to be an echo of this sentiment. It is not my body, it is not my choice. I do not disagree.

I do not also want to imply that I can't or am not doing my own research on the matter. I also understand how inflammatory the word "convenience" sounds anywhere near the abortion topic, and I apologize for framing my comments in such away if they were offensive, though I did try to explain since even at the time I knew it wasn't coming out the best way.

I do believe that a discussion of religion/atheism/abortion is a valid one to have, and maybe I framed the discussion the wrong way.

"Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn't care to, or he doesn't exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely." — Sam Harris

"There is no goddamn god, goddamn it."
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10-01-2012, 12:58 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
If you want to discuss abortion from a strictly atheistic standpoint here are some questions that are worth exploring.
- What about eugenics? Should the future of the human race be left to chance and personal preferences? The reproduction rate (and perhaps abortion rate) for the most intelligent component of the population is low and we are breeding intelligence out of the race.
- The abortion rate for black americans I understand is about 50% of all pregnancies. While I don't think anyone intends this, is there a latent but systematic process that is in effect eliminating the black population?

Just food for thought.

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10-01-2012, 01:33 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
Well clearly government interference with eugenics is not an option, should not be an option
it violates freedom, but i guess i can see where you're coming from.
But id also like to point out that education does not equal intelligence, you could have terrible illiteracy in countries
with high birth rates due to laws restricting the empowerment of women, the fact remains that these people
could be just as intelligent as you or i or einstein or anyone else, but in a repressed society with limited or no useful education
one can see how the potential is wasted. Also the concept of the amount of intelligence as a feature of genetics
seems blown out of proportion to me, i see that most people are intelligent or have the capacity to be so
but a mixture of bad education, negative social attitudes "shunning the nerds" etc. and the pride in being ignorant in social culture
among other factors play a bigger role than eugenics does in that regard. In short i think its more nurture than nature.
I find it very unlikely that intelligence will be "bred out" of the population.

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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10-01-2012, 08:52 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
I apologise to anybody I may have offended and, yes, you are quite right in the fact that it should be open for discussion. I have my own strong, personal opinions on this matter through experience and as such it is probably better if I cease to participate as it could get ugly.

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10-01-2012, 09:15 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
Hey, Aurora.

You can't pique our interest like that and then take your pail and shovel and go home Cool

As long as you aren't one of these women we're probably good.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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