Another Abortion thread.
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10-01-2012, 10:33 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
(09-01-2012 09:23 PM)aurora2020 Wrote:  I'll give you a female opinion.
I think this issue should be debated and implemented by women ONLY!!! For obvious reasons.
Men should be careful what they say on this matter as they may find their heads have come off!!!

As the lady said, I'm pro-choice. Big Grin

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10-01-2012, 10:49 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
(10-01-2012 09:15 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Aurora.

You can't pique our interest like that and then take your pail and shovel and go home Cool

As long as you aren't one of these women we're probably good.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I'm with Matt on this one.

Aurora - go ahead and get ugly, but I think you may be unnecessarily polarizing this.

It's not a case of all-powerful, paternalistic, male-controlled society forcing poor, enslaved women to be breeding machines
vs.
empowered earth mothers taking control of their bodies and it's none of any man's business.

It is a non-trivial problem of human ethics; complicated, multi-layered, important to all of us. It is tightly bound to what it means to be human, to human rights, to how society values life and therefor to related questions of death with dignity, death penalty, and others I haven't thought of.

If I had to choose between abortion being legal or illegal, then there is no question that it should be legal. The implications of it being illegal are horrendous.

But that is society's choice. If it is legal, then it is a woman's choice.

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10-01-2012, 11:11 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
This is another topic in which I have zero moral uncertainty; and from arguments in the past I'm inclined to think Aurora has a point. The most virulent and downright nasty pro-lifers I have encountered have been male; and it seems that is exactly where their arguments have a common denominator - women as property.

I cannot agree. I belong to Gwyneth, she don't belong to me. Big Grin

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11-01-2012, 09:42 AM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2012 11:35 AM by Ghost.)
RE: Another Abortion thread.
Hey, Chaz.

I was all set to point out that you had agreed with me again and then I read this:
Quote:It is a non-trivial problem of human ethics; complicated, multi-layered, important to all of us. It is tightly bound to what it means to be human, to human rights, to how society values life and therefor to related questions of death with dignity, death penalty, and others I haven't thought of.

I agree.

I'm scared, Chaz. I'm scared.

Maybe the Mayans were right about this year. 8o

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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11-01-2012, 09:47 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
I personally would never have one (my wife). With my first child I felt a bond from the moment we found out my wife was pregnant. I am okay with abortion the way it is currently. I don't claim to be able to decide whether or not someone else should get an abortion. I've posted a picture below of a 10 week aborted fetus. Scroll fast and you'll miss it if you want.




http://www.norwayuncovered.com/int_11WK_01.jpg

edit took out the img tags because it's something some may not want to see

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11-01-2012, 10:17 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
I feel the need to have legal abortion. I can't bring myself to impose on someone's rights. Some might say what about the rights of the fetus. Well what makes this a person? Just because it shares a DNA profile? All animals share similar DNA profiles for that matter. Most mammal fetus' look almost identical in the wound. Evolution should be in your thought process when discussing this also. What makes you a human? Is it the mind (not brain)? Another field of study has to cover this.

I do think in a married couple it should be both parent's decision if it isn't a medical emergency issue. After we had our third child I chose to get snipped. Before the Army would perform the procedure my wife had to approve. Fair is fair I suppose Smile

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11-01-2012, 10:31 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
(09-01-2012 09:13 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  There is such a thing as an unborn child biologically and there is also a time
when the foetus still shouldnt be considered human.

Sam Harris covered this nicely in Letter to a Christian Nation, where he pointed out that (thanks to cloning) every cell in your body is a potential human. There is nothing "human" about a fertilized embryo outside of this "potential" to grow into a fetus, in my view as well as that of many atheists. I totally agree, Jackrabbit.

(09-01-2012 09:13 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  If i was asked to draw up plans for new abortion laws it would go something a little like this:
1st comission a scientific study on the foetus and when it would be considered an unborn child (if that hasn't been done already).
but for me i consider it at the moment that it is, from the moment if the foetus would be able to survive if artificially delivered
before the due date.

The problem is not with science determining when something becomes "human". We understand the stages, but where you draw the line is rather arbitrary. The courts decided it was at "viability", and so when a child can survive outside of its mother then it is considered a baby - one that can't be aborted. Abortions at this stage take for the form of a forced early delivery. This is the same as your definition, no? I think a lot of us agree with the court on this one.

(09-01-2012 09:13 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  EDIT: "guys" as a general term to refer to a group of people without any gender specifically

I don't think girls get offended by the word "guys" unless there are no males in their group. If you've ever taken a language course in any of the Romantic Languages (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.) then you know a mixed group is referred to with a male pronoun. We do the same thing in English - calling a group of both men and women by a female title (such as "gals") is offensive, but it's alright to call them "guys". I don't know why this double-standard exists in our language or any other.

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11-01-2012, 10:52 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
(11-01-2012 09:42 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chaz.

I was all set to point out that you had agreed with me again and then I read this:
[quote]It is a non-trivial problem of human ethics; complicated, multi-layered, important to all of us. It is tightly bound to what it means to be human, to human rights, to how society values life and therefor to related questions of death with dignity, death penalty, and others I haven't thought of.[/qupte]

I agree.

I'm scared, Chaz. I'm scared.

Maybe the Mayans were right about this year. 8o

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

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11-01-2012, 12:17 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
Jesus fucking H Christ on a bicycle in Heaven, Sam Harris is a fucking moron! Good God damn it! It boggles the fucking mind how someone that capable speaks as if he's functionally retarded! How can one man so consistently say the dumbest shit ever uttered by carbon-based life-forms!

Hey, Starcrash.

Sorry about the outburst but the man drives me nuts. A cell is not a potential human, it's a cell. If it was extracted and the DNA was extracted and placed in another cell and put in an environment where it could develop, THAT would have potential. A zygote has potential, a cell just hangin around in your body does not. What a fucking tard this man is.

This entire debate, is/is not a foetus human, is ridiculous. It is always a human foetus. That's what it is. That's what it's called. So no, it's not a human, it's a human foetus. A fucking egg isn't a chicken. But the fact that it's not human does not mean that it’s a shit stain worth nothing. It is what it is. The question isn't about whether or not human rights extend to the foetus (which is the whole reason for the debate because if they do it can't be terminated and if they don't it's open season, it's pretty perverse partisan garbage) the question is simply, is it right to abort a human foetus/embryo and when?

Hmmm... I'm not surprised that I reacted violently at the mere mention of that fucktard, but I'm surprised that I've reacted so viscerally to the abortion debate itself. Sorry if I was too ranty. I think it's the fact that I don't see an actual discussion anymore. Both sides have simply declared what the situation is, banned further discourse and just sit back and spout whatever garbage nonsense comes to mind to support their position. It kind of pisses me off.

I think where my worldview really cuts through the ideology is that I support infanticide. There are many reasons for it in many places and it's enshrined in many culutres. I don't know that I could do it myself or that I'd want to, but I think there are cases when it should be allowed. So where does that place me in this whole argument? What does that say about the value of "humanity"? I also support euthanasia. I don't know, it's such a complex issue and the idea that there's a cookie cutter answer seems silly to me.

I support the law that allows abortion though. I just think the notion that Roe Vs Wade is the end of the discussion is dumb and I wish there was further discourse that involved cutting through the ideology on both sides because this issue is pretty far from being resolved.

Hey, Clint.

Interesting point about the vasectomy permission. I didn’t know that. Not quite the same as abortion, but it kind of illustrates that a couple should discuss their fertility options.

Hey, Chaz.

I call shotgun! I get to be one of the cool Horsemen, like War or Death. You can have one of the lame jobs like Famine or Pestilence. Ooooo, I can make bugs, I'm so scary. Pffft. Yeah, whatever bug-boy. I'm wearing Deep Woods Off, so suck it!

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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11-01-2012, 01:47 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
Dominantly a women's choice. If men can have babies and push a damn baby out of their vagina then it can be their choice.Sleepy

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