Another Abortion thread.
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13-01-2012, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2012 12:37 PM by kim.)
RE: Another Abortion thread.
(12-01-2012 09:12 PM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  Lol wut????
When is infanticide ever a good idea?
...
Explain yourselves...
...
Killing a child so you don't carry him in a jungle?
...
I do not see any reasonable justification for this and it is just cruel.

In the jungles of many countries -yes, where people continue to live with nature as they have for --forever- one must deal with nature from a natural stand point.
Most natives have systems of birth control and contraceptives but nature has a way of happening.
Considering having a baby is not an easy decision. (echo) (echo)

I addressed my opinion about this earlier because I felt it relevant to consider all aspects of this issue and not simply discussions of zygotes and laws protecting them. I felt and still feel quality of life for all must be considered if this issue can even be fully addressed.

Empathy time. My favorite show!! Smile

What does it feel like to consider having a baby? Is it an easy question?
Let us say:
You Jackrabbit are about to be the father of your third child in as many years. This is a precarious position because your other two children are barely able to toddle along, much less run form a leopard... or tiger, depending on what jungle on the planet you are in. Your wife already carries one child, you carry the other.

With no one to carry this third (others have their own two to carry), what do you do?

Consider taking your chances with three children:
The current two - have developed certain learned traits such as fear, and you have bonded with them. This new one is completely dependent. With this decision, you stand to put the entire family (tribe) at risk.
If you leave any room for a leopard or tiger to get at even a single piece of human meat, it will begin to stalk it's food supply: humans. That means you, your family, your entire tribe. Sadly, you can not even just leave behind this newborn for this same reason. You, father-Jackrabbit, must take this newborn and burry it so no animal can get at it.

This is a difficult thing to do. It doesn't happen often, but when it does happen... it has to be done. Considering the birth of a child - something that's supposed to bring happiness and joy; is suddenly the most horrible thing you could possibly imagine. As I said, it does not happen often, but when it does happen, it must be done.
I'll ask again:
What does it feel like to consider having a baby?
Is it an easy question?

The above is of course an atypical situation to our oh-so-evolved culture, but the emotion involved is comparable to the question of the original post.

Women go through -have gone through- the heartache surrounding this decision for centuries. Do I have a baby or not have a baby? It is essentially the same question as: Do I have an abortion or not have an abortion?
Does making a law about zygotes really measure up to what is involved?
As I said in my previous post; I don't know.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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14-01-2012, 01:49 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
1586: Pope Sixtus V Mandates Death Penalty for Prostitution
Penalties for prostitution--ranging from maiming to execution--were technically in place in many European states, but generally went unenforced. The newly-elected Pope Sixtus V grew frustrated and decided on a more direct approach, ordering that all women who participate in prostitution should be put to death. There is no evidence that his order was actually carried out on any large scale by Catholic nations of the period.

Although Sixtus reigned for only five years, this was not his only claim to fame. He is also noted as the first Pope to declare that abortion is homicide regardless of the stage of pregnancy; before he became Pope, the church taught that fetuses did not become human persons until quickening (about 20 weeks).

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
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14-01-2012, 05:13 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
Ok there are several things I have to say (novel coming):

1.
I do support abortion. Here a copy+paste from my blog on the very topic, I kept it pretty short and didn't go in a lot of detail, it's a brief overview on my opinion:
Contra abortion:
# Seeing the cells that are evolving into a baby as life already and therefore seeing an abortion as murder.
#Give the unwanted kid a future in a family that will be happy to have a baby because they can't have one naturally.
Pro abortion:
# Forcing a woman that does not want a baby (for whatever reason) may result in a crime. Thinking about dead babies in bushes and trash cans here.
# Having abortion illegal helps a black market for illegal abortions or having people simply abort in another country.
# Some woman may have to carry out a child from a rape. This will damage her psychological for a long time, being reminded of that bad crime that happened to her for 9 month continuously.
# Some people might not be ready to it, bouncing back to the rape, which also happens to younger women teens or girls, some get pregnant, but their bodies are not ready to carry out a baby, so a birth or even just letting it grow inside might be a hight risk.
# Scared women who life with abusive partners or families, have to hide the pregnancy and once it is not possible anymore they might just abort the baby themselve, of course under high risk again, but if you are scared out of your mind you will do such things.
# Baby stays in the family but feels it is not wanted, not loved, abused.
# Carrying out a baby that will have huge defects that will make it unable to ever life an own life and stay dependent for ever might be worse than not being born at all.

2.
Killing a baby/child after being born, in my opinion not nessasary and justifiable in a modern society. For a fact we are not living in the jungle (I do get the jungle thing and I do support it for "jungle people") but we are, at least most of us, living in places where there is at least a basic way to do something else than killing a kid. And I am sure that the moment this would get legal it would get totally abused. (maternety leave for the world, eh. If you are a lazy person that just wants money for nothing, why not do that. Lot's of people get children for the money, no matter how stupid that seems)
In many countries you can get lots of help and that for cheap or even free.Parenting courses, nurses coming by, getting baby clothes washed, free doctor visits etc...
In all "modern" countries there are orphanages and kid shelters, so you can give you kid away.
In other areas again the commune is going to care for the kid if you can't for some reason.
Or the rest of the family will do it for you.
Or you give it for adoption.
or whatever other countries thought out.
But there is no need to kill a baby/child after birth if you are not a jungle person - and you are not Wink

3.
Back to topic:
Abortion is a family decision. The woman didn't get pregnant on her own did she, so no matter if it is "her body" the man who took part in the whole thing does have a say in it. Maybe he wants the child? Thought about it? Both of them didn't use anything to prevent the pregnancy and even if they did and for some reason it didn't work (which happens) still both have a say.
Of course if there is a medical reason to, abort it. But other than that it is a thing to decide together. ... Might be difficult if it was a ons and you do ons' a lot so you have no clue who it was but in such a case, better not spread your DNA anyway, my opinion.
The only thing that might sound hard but I support is the case:
For example if I am alone, have no money, no social skills, no safe place to live, no family or friends to support, and I completely distrust the social system and government to be any good for my child if I give it up, then I support the idea of having an abortion without medical reason (which included mental problems).

Just be honest to yourself:
What is better, abortion or a baby dieing in a trashcan?

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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14-01-2012, 10:20 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
(14-01-2012 05:13 AM)Leela Wrote:  Just be honest to yourself:
What is better, abortion or a baby dieing in a trashcan?

Thank you Leela -you hit the nail on the head! Smile
Absolutely - my point exactly when abortion becomes unavailable.

It is not as if women have not considered everything there is to consider when it comes to this decision. Our bodies dictate every notion and aspect of this issue from the day we start our period in our very early teens. Many laws have been made and will always be made by men, and women will always become the criminals these laws address.

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14-01-2012, 12:07 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
As a male, I find it at least presumptuous to assume that my happy contribution to the scheme of life should afford me the luxury of demanding someone else risk their life just to proliferate my DNA.
Choice must firmly remain with the Woman.
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14-01-2012, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2012 03:25 AM by kim.)
RE: Another Abortion thread.
(14-01-2012 12:07 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  As a male, I find it at least presumptuous to assume that my happy contribution to the scheme of life should afford me the luxury of demanding someone else risk their life just to proliferate my DNA.
Choice must firmly remain with the Woman.

The thing is... we want you. Nothing personal, mind you. Dodgy

Seriously, so much of what happens with women is chemical; we see that DNA walking around and bam! -there lies our future right in front of our eyes.
Men think they are at the mercy of their bodies when it comes to "spreading their seed" and all that. I can guarantee that women are just as much at the mercy of their bodies when it comes to: "I want this man's baby".

One word: Oxytocin.
I suspect that little fucker has caused more shit between the sexes than can be imagined.
Male and/or female, it can turn that one night stand into the beginning of a beautiful nightmare.

But I digress -way off topic- but it does trigger some of the emotional issues that can easily run through this thread.
It can be an emotional topic. Shy

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14-01-2012, 01:31 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
im 18 and female, and i dont think i could ever have an abortion, but im not going to stop others from having it. though i definitely do not think it should be your main form of birth control, i think it should be allowed.

Abortion is kinda a necessary evil (if you think it evil anyway) i think its better a couple doesnt have a baby then have a baby they can take care of, abuse, mistreat, neglect, or leave in a trash can...

im open to changing my opinion, this is just what i think for my perspective.

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14-01-2012, 08:57 PM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
I'm an atheist, I don't like abortion, HOWEVER, I think people should have their own choices. Just because I dislike something, doesn't mean I have any right to limit the rights/actions/choices of others.

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15-01-2012, 12:58 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
This has been bugging me for the last few days. Is there an argument to be made that at the moment the woman consents to the sexual act, she abrogates he claim to having sole decision over the fate of the child? That is to say, the physiological consequence of sex, both having a child and of having her lover's child in particular, is well known before the sex act takes place. By consenting to sex (rape would not apply here), the woman is accepting the possible consequences. That means that by saying yes, she is accepting the fact that she may have to carry a child to term and that the man, while not at risk, has rights involving the safety of the foetus. I'm not saying this is so, I'm just wondering if the case can be made. I'm not sure if I was clear, so if you're confused about anything please ask me before you just rip this apart for challenging the Roe vs Wade decision.

Hey, Leela.

I wrote that before reading part 3 of your post. Please don't think I'm jacking your idea.

I have a question. I agree that there are resources in place. My question is, if those resources are either not-available, unacceptable or some combination of the two, are parents supposed to keep the child regardless or can they deal with the reality of the situation as they see fit?

Quote:Just be honest to yourself:
What is better, abortion or a baby dieing in a trashcan?

On a serious note, this is what I'm getting at. If a mother can't raise the child and there's no available options, she'll find a way to get rid of the child. Do we just condemn parents for dealing with the situation thoughtfully but in ways we find repugnant or do we just say, "Well, it doesn't matter if you had no options, what you did is unacceptable?"

On a lighter note, This.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Hey, Red Tornado.

I agree.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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15-01-2012, 02:50 AM
RE: Another Abortion thread.
(15-01-2012 12:58 AM)Ghost Wrote:  This has been bugging me for the last few days. Is there an argument to be made that at the moment the woman consents to the sexual act, she abrogates he claim to having sole decision over the fate of the child? That is to say, the physiological consequence of sex, both having a child and of having her lover's child in particular, is well known before the sex act takes place. By consenting to sex (rape would not apply here), the woman is accepting the possible consequences. That means that by saying yes, she is accepting the fact that she may have to carry a child to term and that the man, while not at risk, has rights involving the safety of the foetus. I'm not saying this is so, I'm just wondering if the case can be made. I'm not sure if I was clear, so if you're confused about anything please ask me before you just rip this apart for challenging the Roe vs Wade decision.
Hi Ghost -
I'm not quite sure what you are asking; are you talking about consenting adults who simply want to have sex with each other? By consenting to sex, a man is accepting the possibility of sex resulting in the pregnancy of another person. By consenting to sex, a woman is accepting the possibility of sex resulting in pregnancy of herself. Why would a woman relinquish control over decisions concerning her body, simply by consenting to sex? If there is no relationship other than sex, I'd say they are each on their own.
Are you asking if a woman having control over her own body trumps any rights the man might claim to the fetus? I don't know about Roe vs Wade, but I'd say possession is nine tenths of the law.
Is any of that that at least related to what you were asking? If it is, I guess that would be my opinion. If it's not what you asked, maybe I am confused... or let me know if I missed something? Shy

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