Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
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29-02-2016, 07:32 AM
RE: Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
Here, I'll put it another way:
Titles like those at Harvard, have as much to do with the ceremony of tradition as anything else. Does it matter that someone is a House Master or a Faculty Dean? No. Same job.

Well, the change is a ceremony too. It is a ceremony of recognition of the need for more meaningful conversations about race at Harvard (an inherently progressive institution) and in our world at large. It is about setting a precedent that when these students leave their institutions and come across inequality, they won't simply stay silent because it's "tradition."

There are many labels out there that are either blatantly racist, or have roots in blatantly racist terminology. If one group (the oppressed group) wants to reclaim a label, that is their choice. If they want it recognized as racist and abolished, that too is their choice.

A friend and I were in his tool shed a few weeks back and he remembered coming across some "racist graffiti" from the previous owner. I asked him what it said and it was "nigger toes." Of course, what that label means is Brazil Nuts. It is a label with obvious racial connotation, but I've no doubt that there are people who do not see it and would not recognize it. Just like there are people out there who call themselves (or their bosses) "slave drivers" without recognizing the racial connotations of it. It is about awareness of terms and labels.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-02-2016, 12:07 PM
RE: Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
(29-02-2016 07:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Once again, you're assuming that only the students dictated this change, that isn't and couldn't be true.

Actually, no, I'm not assuming that. But I know that they instigated it with their pressure.

(29-02-2016 07:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It isn't a matter of "de-contextualizing" language but of opening up a dialogue on an issue (race relations) and using an example of change to open up that dialogue to a wider audience (changing the labels attached to positions within the university).

We'll agree to disagree on this. They are opening up a racial dialogue by taking a term out of context and inflicting on it a racial connotation that it doesn't have. This is precisely about decontextualization: inflicting unintended meanings upon words.

You never did answer my question: Would you support banning the term "master of ceremonies" on the same basis that the word "master" hearkens back to the chattel slavery of blacks in America? Why or why not? Justify your answer.

(29-02-2016 07:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  As they said, they didn't remove "Master" from an MS or MA degree, because, as they say, the word "master" has never had anything to do with slavery at Harvard. Ergo, they didn't change it because of slavery or racist connotations, but because they listened to their students and agreed that a change to a title that is itself, meaningless, can have meaning if it comes attached to a meaningful conversation.

I disagree with their decision, is my point.

(29-02-2016 07:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You should stop with the knee-jerk reactions that change to appease people is just "PC run amok."

I don't think that all changes are "PC run amok" -- that's a blanket charge you're laying for which you have zero evidence, an empty ad hom attack on your part.
You'll need to explain why this isn't one of those PC moments, though. I find your points unconvincing. I also think that you're simply ignoring my point about decontextualization, and that's no answer at all.

You should stop attacking the person and attack his argument instead.

(29-02-2016 07:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There are many labels out there that are either blatantly racist, or have roots in blatantly racist terminology. If one group (the oppressed group) wants to reclaim a label, that is their choice. If they want it recognized as racist and abolished, that too is their choice.

No. No one group gets to dictate the language used in the common discourse. I whole-heartedly disagree with that.

A careful reading of the American Constitution reveals no right to be free from offense.

(29-02-2016 07:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A friend and I were in his tool shed a few weeks back and he remembered coming across some "racist graffiti" from the previous owner. I asked him what it said and it was "nigger toes." Of course, what that label means is Brazil Nuts. It is a label with obvious racial connotation, but I've no doubt that there are people who do not see it and would not recognize it. Just like there are people out there who call themselves (or their bosses) "slave drivers" without recognizing the racial connotations of it. It is about awareness of terms and labels.

I'm told that Brazilians are offended by the insinuation that they're nuts.
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29-02-2016, 12:14 PM
RE: Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
(29-02-2016 01:10 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 11:11 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  If they choose to support those requested changes who are you to tell them they shouldn't?

I have my opinion on matters. Who are you to object to my speaking it? We're having a public discussion. I am part of the public. That's who I am.

Don't like it? Oh well.

Yes, you can have opinions, doesn't mean they mean anything. You're allowed to rant at a rainstorm if you want to or you could do something useful. Your choice.

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29-02-2016, 12:16 PM
RE: Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
(28-02-2016 12:05 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 11:44 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  It was all you deserved. Big Grin
You have no argument then? Thanks for playing, you lose. Drinking Beverage

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29-02-2016, 12:18 PM
RE: Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
(29-02-2016 12:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 07:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Once again, you're assuming that only the students dictated this change, that isn't and couldn't be true.

Actually, no, I'm not assuming that. But I know that they instigated it with their pressure.

(29-02-2016 07:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It isn't a matter of "de-contextualizing" language but of opening up a dialogue on an issue (race relations) and using an example of change to open up that dialogue to a wider audience (changing the labels attached to positions within the university).

We'll agree to disagree on this. They are opening up a racial dialogue by taking a term out of context and inflicting on it a racial connotation that it doesn't have. This is precisely about decontextualization: inflicting unintended meanings upon words.

You never did answer my question: Would you support banning the term "master of ceremonies" on the same basis that the word "master" hearkens back to the chattel slavery of blacks in America? Why or why not? Justify your answer.

(29-02-2016 07:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  As they said, they didn't remove "Master" from an MS or MA degree, because, as they say, the word "master" has never had anything to do with slavery at Harvard. Ergo, they didn't change it because of slavery or racist connotations, but because they listened to their students and agreed that a change to a title that is itself, meaningless, can have meaning if it comes attached to a meaningful conversation.

I disagree with their decision, is my point.

(29-02-2016 07:17 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You should stop with the knee-jerk reactions that change to appease people is just "PC run amok."

I don't think that all changes are "PC run amok" -- that's a blanket charge you're laying for which you have zero evidence, an empty ad hom attack on your part.
You'll need to explain why this isn't one of those PC moments, though. I find your points unconvincing. I also think that you're simply ignoring my point about decontextualization, and that's no answer at all.

You should stop attacking the person and attack his argument instead.

(29-02-2016 07:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There are many labels out there that are either blatantly racist, or have roots in blatantly racist terminology. If one group (the oppressed group) wants to reclaim a label, that is their choice. If they want it recognized as racist and abolished, that too is their choice.

No. No one group gets to dictate the language used in the common discourse. I whole-heartedly disagree with that.

A careful reading of the American Constitution reveals no right to be free from offense.

(29-02-2016 07:32 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A friend and I were in his tool shed a few weeks back and he remembered coming across some "racist graffiti" from the previous owner. I asked him what it said and it was "nigger toes." Of course, what that label means is Brazil Nuts. It is a label with obvious racial connotation, but I've no doubt that there are people who do not see it and would not recognize it. Just like there are people out there who call themselves (or their bosses) "slave drivers" without recognizing the racial connotations of it. It is about awareness of terms and labels.

I'm told that Brazilians are offended by the insinuation that they're nuts.

Here, I'll highlight this one point:
"I disagree with their decision, is my point. "

They don't care and didn't ask your opinion. What you see as a "PC issue," they see as a conversation on race in America.

"You should stop attacking the person and attack his argument instead."

I have been. You are not your argument but seem to take personal critiques as personal attacks.

"A careful reading of the American Constitution reveals no right to be free from offense. "

So does a casual reading. Who cares? There is no personal freedom guaranteed to be offensive either. You can use your freedom of expression and speech to be offended or be offensive.

"Would you support banning the term "master of ceremonies" on the same basis that the word "master" hearkens back to the chattel slavery of blacks in America? Why or why not? Justify your answer."

Just as Harvard said in their decision, the term is not explicitly or implicitly tied to racism. Ergo, a unilateral replacement of the term "master" is not necessary in all cases. Only those that they (as members of their institution) see fit. I believe in context and dialogue. Why does someone want it changed? What is the motivation? What impact does it have?

House Master or Faculty Dean? Doesn't matter.

Master of Science or Master of Arts, does matter because literally every other institution grants Masters' degrees. And the master refers to the mastery of a discipline.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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29-02-2016, 12:52 PM
RE: Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
(29-02-2016 12:14 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Yes, you can have opinions, doesn't mean they mean anything. You're allowed to rant at a rainstorm if you want to or you could do something useful. Your choice.

Yet here you are, opining about something you cannot change instead of doing something useful.

We're online to exchange opinions. If you think that's useless, turn off your computer and go for a walk, take up model-building, write a novel, invent a new vaccine.

If you don't value my opinion, great. It's not my loss. Put me on ignore and go on about your day. But questioning my ability to opine at all ("Who are you to say ...") is not something a thoughtful person interested in enriching conversation should do. It is the act of someone who is clearly uncomfortable with having her opinions challenged, but who cannot marshal a counter-argument and instead seeks to invalidate the person instead of his point.

You have a nice day now.
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29-02-2016, 12:54 PM
RE: Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
A private entity made a superficial change to appease some of its clients. The BBC article can't even muster a primary source and the change in question happened months ago. Am I supposed to give a shit?

But no, it's POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!11!!one!!1

Jesus fucking christ.

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29-02-2016, 12:55 PM
RE: Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
I do agree that we seem to be developing an extreme left that I do not agree with. However I think others are starting to realise its a problem so thats good. For example. Melissa Click was fired from her job after doing some pretty rotten things during the Mizzou protest.
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29-02-2016, 12:56 PM
RE: Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
(29-02-2016 12:54 PM)cjlr Wrote:  A private entity made a superficial change to appease some of its clients. The BBC article can't even muster a primary source and the change in question happened months ago. Am I supposed to give a shit?

But no, it's POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!11!!one!!1

Jesus fucking christ.

Now there is a pr0n I'd love to see. Wink
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29-02-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Another Example of the Insanity of PC Culture
(29-02-2016 12:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Here, I'll highlight this one point:
"I disagree with their decision, is my point. "

They don't care and didn't ask your opinion. What you see as a "PC issue," they see as a conversation on race in America.

So what? No one group of people has the power to impose any one framework on a discussion. In a public discussion, anyone can opine.

(29-02-2016 12:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "You should stop attacking the person and attack his argument instead."

I have been. You are not your argument but seem to take personal critiques as personal attacks.

No, you haven't addressed my point about decontextualization and the meaning of words -- you simply waved it away.

Calling my response "knee-jerk" is indeed a personal attack, because it is calling me thoughtless. I think that whether or not you agree with my points here, it's clear that they're not simply me acting in an off-the-cuff manner. Being a member of a multiracial family, this topic is something I've spent a lot of time thinking about. I don't appreciate you misstating my position here and I'm not about to let you do so without objection.

(29-02-2016 12:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "A careful reading of the American Constitution reveals no right to be free from offense. "

So does a casual reading. Who cares? There is no personal freedom guaranteed to be offensive either. You can use your freedom of expression and speech to be offended or be offensive.

Say, you're starting to get it now.

(29-02-2016 12:18 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Would you support banning the term "master of ceremonies" on the same basis that the word "master" hearkens back to the chattel slavery of blacks in America? Why or why not? Justify your answer."

Just as Harvard said in their decision, the term is not explicitly or implicitly tied to racism. Ergo, a unilateral replacement of the term "master" is not necessary in all cases. Only those that they (as members of their institution) see fit. I believe in context and dialogue. Why does someone want it changed? What is the motivation? What impact does it have?

If you believe in context and dialogue, why are you so obviously unconcerned that they are imposing an entirely artificial context on "master" in this case? With all of the very real racial issues plaguing this country today, this is not only insignificant, but in light of the decontextualization of "master" in order to find it offensive, is probably counter-productive.
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