Another Flood question
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17-09-2013, 06:36 AM
Another Flood question
A few days ago I asked a friend of mine what Satan was doing during the flood. He has yet to answer. So, I decided to post it to the Ray Comfort page to see what I'd get. Only two people attempted to answer. One answer was "He was re-igniting hell" and the other was, "Watching his trolls drown". I don't think Ray's followers got my point but my friend did which is why he hasn't answered yet. That point being, if God was so disgusted with the so-called sin in the world then why didn't he take out the so-called cause of all this "evil"? Didn't he get it that the whole cycle would just start over? God appears to be an incompetent bully who is powerless against the foe he created.

"Now I don't want to be sane either, but I'm just saying there may be other delusions and hallucinations worthy of consideration before jumping to an irrational conclusion, that's all."
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17-09-2013, 01:07 PM
 
RE: Another Flood question
(17-09-2013 06:36 AM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  A few days ago I asked a friend of mine what Satan was doing during the flood.

Nothing - because he wasn't devised yet.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be a single reference to Satan in the Torah. The serpent in the garden of Eden was not referred to as Satan, but merely as a serpent.
Satan was found later in Job (1:6-12), but not as a rebellious angel. Only during the exile in Babylon did the Hebrews come into contact with good vs. evil dualism, which then influenced their theology.
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17-09-2013, 03:08 PM
RE: Another Flood question
(17-09-2013 01:07 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 06:36 AM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  A few days ago I asked a friend of mine what Satan was doing during the flood.

Nothing - because he wasn't devised yet.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be a single reference to Satan in the Torah. The serpent in the garden of Eden was not referred to as Satan, but merely as a serpent.
Satan was found later in Job (1:6-12), but not as a rebellious angel. Only during the exile in Babylon did the Hebrews come into contact with good vs. evil dualism, which then influenced their theology.

I recall seeing a video that the word Satan was later devised from a title used in those books. The meaning of the word meant deceiver, which was a title for any generic unnamed person who was trying to deceive the hero of whatever story/passage. I think it was only later that all these people were re-imagined, and grouped together as one entity and given the title Satan to mean a unique person.

And then later, through more re-imagining, was this "Satan" and Lucifer joined into one.

That's my memory of it anyway.
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17-09-2013, 04:19 PM
RE: Another Flood question
(17-09-2013 03:08 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 01:07 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  Nothing - because he wasn't devised yet.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be a single reference to Satan in the Torah. The serpent in the garden of Eden was not referred to as Satan, but merely as a serpent.
Satan was found later in Job (1:6-12), but not as a rebellious angel. Only during the exile in Babylon did the Hebrews come into contact with good vs. evil dualism, which then influenced their theology.

I recall seeing a video that the word Satan was later devised from a title used in those books. The meaning of the word meant deceiver, which was a title for any generic unnamed person who was trying to deceive the hero of whatever story/passage. I think it was only later that all these people were re-imagined, and grouped together as one entity and given the title Satan to mean a unique person.

And then later, through more re-imagining, was this "Satan" and Lucifer joined into one.

That's my memory of it anyway.

Sure. Any good story needs a villain. After all, a hero can only be as awesome as the villain is evil.

What's really stupid is that people buy into his character so easily:
One of God's angels gets an attitude, so God punishes him by letting him remain immortal; gives him his own realm to rule; gives him legions of demons to do his bidding; makes them all immortal too; gives the whole lot supernatural powers like invisibility, mind control, telekinesis, etc.

And yet when humans act up, he destroys virtually the whole planet with a flood. Huh
Yeah, that makes so much sense.

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17-09-2013, 04:27 PM
 
RE: Another Flood question
(17-09-2013 04:19 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  One of God's angels gets an attitude, so God punishes him by letting him remain immortal; gives him his own realm to rule; gives him legions of demons to do his bidding; makes them all immortal too; gives the whole lot supernatural powers like invisibility, mind control, telekinesis, etc.

...for the sole purpose of screwing up the humans. Omnibenevolence ftw. Drinking Beverage
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19-09-2013, 06:21 AM
RE: Another Flood question
(17-09-2013 06:36 AM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  God appears to be an incompetent bully who is powerless against the foe he created.

Welcome to the contrivances of a god made in the imagine of a bronze age desert chieftain or king.

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19-09-2013, 06:23 AM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2013 06:49 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Another Flood question
(17-09-2013 03:08 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  I recall seeing a video that the word Satan was later devised from a title used in those books. The meaning of the word meant deceiver, which was a title for any generic unnamed person who was trying to deceive the hero of whatever story/passage.

Mashit - 'the destroyer' - The angel sent by God to kill all the first born in Egypt, an assassin under his direct control.

ma'lak hammashit - 'the angel who was bringing destruction' - One of the references to the angle sent by God and responsible for the massacre after David's census.

satan - 'and agent of obstruction or punishment' - Can be an earthly or celestial adversary, used to reference the angel in the story of Balam and his donkey.

hassatan - 'the accuser' - This is the subordinate agent of the lord in the Book of Job, is part of a celestial council, has limited power, and works on God's behalf.

Satan - Satan with a capitol S. This is the term used to refer to the same angel from the David census, but this time in the later Book of Chronicles. The first time 'Satan' is used as a proper noun in the Hebrew bible.

"The Chronicler, then, reflects the growing existential frustration of a monotheistic people who find it difficult to accept a God who is the author of both good and evil." The Birth of Satan, Pg.67

Mastema - An angle that carries out punishment in the Book of Jubilees. He tempts humans and requests that God allow him to have subordinate demons under his command.

Satanael - A rebel angel in the second Book of Enoch. He was cast out of heaven and takes up arms against it.


It must also be noted that in the earliest writing of the New Testament, the Epistles, Satan is mentioned only 7 times, and always as his more traditional 'accuser' or 'adversary' form. It's in the later Gospels that Satan is upgraded into Jesus' arch nemesis.




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21-09-2013, 01:00 PM
RE: Another Flood question
That video is fantastic! Thank you for the post.

"Now I don't want to be sane either, but I'm just saying there may be other delusions and hallucinations worthy of consideration before jumping to an irrational conclusion, that's all."
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26-09-2013, 03:18 AM
RE: Another Flood question
(17-09-2013 06:36 AM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  A few days ago I asked a friend of mine what Satan was doing during the flood. He has yet to answer. So, I decided to post it to the Ray Comfort page to see what I'd get. Only two people attempted to answer. One answer was "He was re-igniting hell" and the other was, "Watching his trolls drown". I don't think Ray's followers got my point but my friend did which is why he hasn't answered yet. That point being, if God was so disgusted with the so-called sin in the world then why didn't he take out the so-called cause of all this "evil"? Didn't he get it that the whole cycle would just start over? God appears to be an incompetent bully who is powerless against the foe he created.
The whole point of the flood story is to prove that God did do something about it. He destroyed all of wicked humanity which Satan had corrupted. He also limited the length of years that a man could live in order to limit the extent to which men could be corrupted. At the tower of Babel he confounded the language to limit the corruptions of mankind. God shall take out Satan in the last days and throw him chained into the bottomless pit so that mankind can live in boundless peace and unity with God. That is explained in the Book of Revelation.

You condemn God because he did not take down Satan at the flood. But that was like 1600 years after the creation of the world. Why did not God take down Satan centuries before that say 1000 anno mundi? Why didn't he take him down at the Garden of Eden? Why didn't he take him down when he had his first evil thought before he rebelled against God? We can all speculate why God did not do so, but in the end God does things in his own time. The devil is the scapegoat who will bear the blame for all the sins of all mankind as he is led into the wilderness of the bottomless pit.

Are you not also a sinner and me also. Are we being sinners therefore not evil as Satan was when he had his first thought of rebellion against God? So those of us who reckon that God should have taken down Satan sooner better rethink your accusation lest God takes you down sooner.

In such matters God's thoughts are vastly higher than our thoughts. We cannot even begin to comprehend his mysteries except by his Holy Spirit. If however you wish to learn the mind of God, then you who are carnal need to listen to a spiritual man such as myself, who can explain the mysteries of God to the extent to which the Lord has revealed them to me by his Holy Spirit.
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26-09-2013, 03:50 AM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2013 08:39 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Another Flood question
Alright boys and girls, lets take a journey down the rabbit hole line-by-line! This shit is gonna get nutty...


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The whole point of the flood story is to prove that God did do something about it.

Which he wouldn't have needed to do had he used his omniscience to sufficiently plan ahead. Maybe by not creating Satan, or just stopping him in his tracks with his omnipotence.


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  He destroyed all of wicked humanity which Satan had corrupted.

God's fault because he created Satan and had the power to stop him, but didn't.


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  He also limited the length of years that a man could live in order to limit the extent to which men could be corrupted.

But working under the OT rules, forgiveness was just a burnt animal carcass away, so what does that have to do with lifespans?


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  At the tower of Babel he confounded the language to limit the corruptions of mankind.

And his plan failed miserably, so much for omniscience.


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  God shall take out Satan in the last days and throw him chained into the bottomless pit so that mankind can live in boundless peace and unity with God. That is explained in the Book of Revelation.

Why didn't God do this FIRST and save himself a lot of trouble? To knowingly allow Satan to do his thing when god could stop him is needlessly callous, capacious, and evil in and of itself.


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  You condemn God because he did not take down Satan at the flood.

Actually the Flood never happened as described. Failing that, if you want to posit your god, then it is his fault for being so terribly inept.


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  But that was like 1600 years after the creation of the world.

Evidence or GTFO.


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Why did not God take down Satan centuries before that say 1000 anno mundi? Why didn't he take him down at the Garden of Eden? Why didn't he take him down when he had his first evil thought before he rebelled against God?

Good questions, that I bet good money you don't have adequate answer for and will just gloss over because... god...


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  We can all speculate why God did not do so, but in the end God does things in his own time.

'I don't know, therefor god is great'. Really? That's all you got? You think that is at all compelling?

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(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The devil is the scapegoat who will bear the blame for all the sins of all mankind as he is led into the wilderness of the bottomless pit.

Wait, isn't the role of 'cosmic scapegoat' Jesus' whole gig? Blink


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Are you not also a sinner and me also.

I are most best good english... Hobo


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Are we being sinners therefore not evil as Satan was when he had his first thought of rebellion against God? So those of us who reckon that God should have taken down Satan sooner better rethink your accusation lest God takes you down sooner.

You'd better stop asking sensible questions about my magical sky-daddy before he gets angry and smites you! Yeah, not compelling at all...


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  In such matters God's thoughts are vastly higher than our thoughts.

Once again 'I don't know, therefor god is great'. If you profess such ignorance to your god's ways of thinking, why should we believe anything you say when you conversely claim to speak with intimate knowledge of your god's actions and motives? You can't have it both ways dumbass...


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  We cannot even begin to comprehend his mysteries except by his Holy Spirit.

Nonsensical woowoo is nonsensical woowoo.


(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  If however you wish to learn the mind of God, then you who are carnal need to listen to a spiritual man such as myself, who can explain the mysteries of God to the extent to which the Lord has revealed them to me by his Holy Spirit.

Right, lets all just abrogate our own rational thinking and accept things on blind faith, because that has never been abused in the past by unscrupulous religious dick-wads claiming to speak on behalf of a higher power. Thanks, but no thanks, I'll continue to keep thinking for myself. You know, exercising the brain that your god supposedly gave me.

People who don't want you to think are never your friends.

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