Another Flood question
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26-09-2013, 04:08 AM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2013 04:13 AM by excubitor.)
RE: Another Flood question
(19-09-2013 06:23 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 03:08 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  I recall seeing a video that the word Satan was later devised from a title used in those books. The meaning of the word meant deceiver, which was a title for any generic unnamed person who was trying to deceive the hero of whatever story/passage.

Mashit - 'the destroyer' - The angel sent by God to kill all the first born in Egypt, an assassin under his direct control.

ma'lak hammashit - 'the angel who was bringing destruction' - One of the references to the angle sent by God and responsible for the massacre after David's census.

satan - 'and agent of obstruction or punishment' - Can be an earthly or celestial adversary, used to reference the angel in the story of Balam and his donkey.

hassatan - 'the accuser' - This is the subordinate agent of the lord in the Book of Job, is part of a celestial council, has limited power, and works on God's behalf.

Satan - Satan with a capitol S. This is the term used to refer to the same angel from the David census, but this time in the later Book of Chronicles. The first time 'Satan' is used as a proper noun in the Hebrew bible.

"The Chronicler, then, reflects the growing existential frustration of a monotheistic people who find it difficult to accept a God who is the author of both good and evil." The Birth of Satan, Pg.67

Mastema - An angle that carries out punishment in the Book of Jubilees. He tempts humans and requests that God allow him to have subordinate demons under his command.

Satanael - A rebel angel in the second Book of Enoch. He was cast out of heaven and takes up arms against it.


It must also be noted that in the earliest writing of the New Testament, the Epistles, Satan is mentioned only 7 times, and always as his more traditional 'accuser' or 'adversary' form. It's in the later Gospels that Satan is upgraded into Jesus' arch nemesis.
Very interesting. The context in which this video is given is that it somehow thwarts and overthrows the faith of Christians and dismantles their conceptions of God and Satan. As for me I cannot see how this is the case. I don't feel in the slightest threatened by anything in the video.
God does limit the activities of Satan and at other times lets him have a freer rein. These are for his great purposes, to teach men the nature and horrors of evil, to test their faith, to test their resolve to not sin. To strenthen them as agents of his host in the fight against demonic, satanic, evil forces in the world and for any number of other reasons.

As Lord of the Universe with complete and omnipotent power every knee must bow to his sovereignty, even the devils. And if the Lord command the evil angel to do his bidding then the evil angel is utterly coerced to do his will. If an omnipotent being has the power to prevent and even direct evil events and deeds then does this make him evil? Certainly not. In fact his ordaining and allowance of evil results in a better world.

CS Lewis makes the point that how would someone have any concept of what a straight line was if a crooked line was never permitted to be drawn? In the same way it is by the communication of evil and of rebellious agents like Satan that men can come to learn the infinite extent of the Lord's goodness, mercy and love.

The Catholic encyclopedia points out that the existence of evil subserves the perfection of the whole giving as an example the fact that fire must consume that which is burned and that if there was no wrong doing there would be no need for patience and justice. Is God evil because he created the darkness? No he created the darkness so that men could understand what the light was.

It is almost impossible to fathom the extent of the most profound thinking that has gone into this subject over the course of 2000 years of the Catholic church. I hope we all progress from dicky little youtube videos and start to make an honest effort to consider this great body of philosophy and theology which is a product of the church.

Just as a start I recommend that you try the Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm
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26-09-2013, 04:24 AM
RE: Another Flood question
(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  If however you wish to learn the mind of God, then you who are carnal need to listen to a spiritual man such as myself, who can explain the mysteries of God to the extent to which the Lord has revealed them to me by his Holy Spirit.

I prefer Gwynnies Holy Spirit.

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26-09-2013, 05:53 AM
RE: Another Flood question
(26-09-2013 03:18 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 06:36 AM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  A few days ago I asked a friend of mine what Satan was doing during the flood. He has yet to answer. So, I decided to post it to the Ray Comfort page to see what I'd get. Only two people attempted to answer. One answer was "He was re-igniting hell" and the other was, "Watching his trolls drown". I don't think Ray's followers got my point but my friend did which is why he hasn't answered yet. That point being, if God was so disgusted with the so-called sin in the world then why didn't he take out the so-called cause of all this "evil"? Didn't he get it that the whole cycle would just start over? God appears to be an incompetent bully who is powerless against the foe he created.
The whole point of the flood story is to prove that God did do something about it. He destroyed all of wicked humanity which Satan had corrupted. He also limited the length of years that a man could live in order to limit the extent to which men could be corrupted. At the tower of Babel he confounded the language to limit the corruptions of mankind. God shall take out Satan in the last days and throw him chained into the bottomless pit so that mankind can live in boundless peace and unity with God. That is explained in the Book of Revelation.

You condemn God because he did not take down Satan at the flood. But that was like 1600 years after the creation of the world. Why did not God take down Satan centuries before that say 1000 anno mundi? Why didn't he take him down at the Garden of Eden? Why didn't he take him down when he had his first evil thought before he rebelled against God? We can all speculate why God did not do so, but in the end God does things in his own time. The devil is the scapegoat who will bear the blame for all the sins of all mankind as he is led into the wilderness of the bottomless pit.

Are you not also a sinner and me also. Are we being sinners therefore not evil as Satan was when he had his first thought of rebellion against God? So those of us who reckon that God should have taken down Satan sooner better rethink your accusation lest God takes you down sooner.

In such matters God's thoughts are vastly higher than our thoughts. We cannot even begin to comprehend his mysteries except by his Holy Spirit. If however you wish to learn the mind of God, then you who are carnal need to listen to a spiritual man such as myself, who can explain the mysteries of God to the extent to which the Lord has revealed them to me by his Holy Spirit.

Is someone complaining that god didn't do it right? Huh

No. No one is, because what we are saying is that it never happened. It is myth.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-09-2013, 06:46 AM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2013 06:50 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Another Flood question
(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Very interesting. The context in which this video is given is that it somehow thwarts and overthrows the faith of Christians and dismantles their conceptions of God and Satan.

If that faith is built upon a literal interpretation that doesn't take into account the evidence from cultural anthropology and mythic development evidenced from textual criticism and archaeology; yeah the faith in a arch-nemesis super-villain Satan in the Gospels is pretty untenable without a massive dose of ignorance and bias.


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  As for me I cannot see how this is the case. I don't feel in the slightest threatened by anything in the video.

Of course you don't, you are a True Believer™ and in possession of the One Truth™. Now one would hope that such knowledge would leave you confident enough in your faith to not go out of your way to defend it in front of nonbelievers and save us all a lot of trouble, but sadly this isn't the case...


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  God does limit the activities of Satan and at other times lets him have a freer rein.

And why should we believe that? Do you have any evidence outside of just quoting scripture (which for the record isn't evidence but merely restating the claim)?


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  These are for his great purposes, to teach men the nature and horrors of evil, to test their faith, to test their resolve to not sin. To strenthen[sic] them as agents of his host in the fight against demonic, satanic, evil forces in the world and for any number of other reasons.

Amazing how you have so much insight into the psyche and motivation of your god. But once again, why should anyone else take what you say seriously?


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  As Lord of the Universe with complete and omnipotent power every knee must bow to his sovereignty, even the devils.

An all-powerful god that creates evil and allows it to propagate, is responsible for that evil. Just a heads up in case later you try defending that your all-powerful god is also benevolent.


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  And if the Lord command the evil angel to do his bidding then the evil angel is utterly coerced to do his will.

I just love how much you theists love the idea of freewill, and yet are completely okay with your god interfering with it at a whim.


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  If an omnipotent being has the power to prevent and even direct evil events and deeds then does this make him evil? Certainly not.

Wow, you are delusional and flatly wrong. Not that I'd really expect a clearly uneducated theists to grasp the concept of moral accountability when they've been brought up to unquestionably accept as truth a religion built around cosmic scapegoating, but whatever.

I will however say that I am almost certain that you wouldn't apply that same criteria to anyone else but your god, and you are merely giving him a pass because that's what your dogma demands from you. Let's face it, there isn't a Republican alive in America that would buy your argument if it was instead used to defend Osama Bin Laden against culpability for the 9-11 terrorist attacks.



(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  In fact his ordaining and allowance of evil results in a better world.

You god is supposedly all-powerful. Are you saying now that he isn't powerful enough to accomplish his goals without allowing evil? Because here you have the core of the paradox know as the Problem of Evil (not that you'd know what that is).

In the presence of a world that clearly allows evil and suffering, we cannot have an all-powerful god who is also all-good. An all-good god would accomplish his goals without resorting to evil, and an all-powerful god would have the power to do so. So you claim that your god has both the will and the power, so whence cometh evil? One of his two attributes must give, they cannot both logically exists in the same god at the same time in our universe.



(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  CS Lewis makes the point that how would someone have any concept of what a straight line was if a crooked line was never permitted to be drawn? In the same way it is by the communication of evil and of rebellious agents like Satan that men can come to learn the infinite extent of the Lord's goodness, mercy and love.

Didn't your all-powerful god have the power to create a universe without evil? In a universe without evil, then the lack of the concept of evil is meaningless, because evil would be nonexistent. Just like how your god supposedly could have made a world with nothing but straight lines, and thus the concept of a squiggly line would be meaningless, because squiggly lines simply wouldn't exist. Doesn't your all-powerful god have the power to do that?


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The Catholic encyclopedia points out that the existence of evil subserves[sic] the perfection of the whole giving as an example the fact that fire must consume that which is burned and that if there was no wrong doing there would be no need for patience and justice.

I am a god among men. I am able to bench-press a loaded greyhound bus full of Canadians. I can drink an entire tavern under the table at happy-hour. I can chop down a massive Californian Redwood with nothing more than my own erect wood. I think Gene Simmon's womanizing and number of female 'conquests' is comparatively quaint. Chuck Norris, Clint Eastwood, and John Wayne have all referred to me as 'sir'.

Did the proceeding paragraph convince you of my superior awesomeness? Funny, because that paragraph has just as much factual authority on the nature of reality as your Catholic Encyclopedia. By the way, does it have a chart showing just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? It doesn't happen to vary by the type of dance being performed, does it?


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Is God evil because he created the darkness? No he created the darkness so that men could understand what the light was.

Does your all-powerful god not have the power to give as an innate understanding of darkness without actually creating it? Is he not powerful enough to do that?


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  It is almost impossible to fathom the extent of the most profound thinking that has gone into this subject over the course of 2000 years of the Catholic church.

How much time, effort, and energy has been wasted on thinking about imaginary shit under the false assumption that it actually exists? Yeah, that amount of wasted effort and energy is almost impossible to fathom. Fortunately we have believers like you to help reinforce just how tragic that wasted energy continues to be...


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I hope we all progress from dicky[sic] little youtube[sic] videos and start to make an honest effort to consider this great body of philosophy and theology which is a product of the church.

How many angels can fit on the head of a pin again?

Yeah, there is a reason why presuppositional apologetics has no traction with us; we're too fucking smart to not see it for the illogical incoherent merely assertive bullshit that it is.


(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Just as a start I recommend that you try the Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm

I really hope it has that angel-pin-dance chart, I'm actually curious about that... Consider

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27-09-2013, 04:13 PM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2013 04:19 PM by excubitor.)
RE: Another Flood question
(27-09-2013 06:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(26-09-2013 04:08 AM)excubitor Wrote:  In fact his ordaining and allowance of evil results in a better world.

You god is supposedly all-powerful. Are you saying now that he isn't powerful enough to accomplish his goals without allowing evil? Because here you have the core of the paradox know as the Problem of Evil (not that you'd know what that is).

In the presence of a world that clearly allows evil and suffering, we cannot have an all-powerful god who is also all-good. An all-good god would accomplish his goals without resorting to evil, and an all-powerful god would have the power to do so. So you claim that your god has both the will and the power, so whence cometh evil? One of his two attributes must give, they cannot both logically exists in the same god at the same time in our universe.
Well I did know about the Problem of Evil, but only yesterday when I came across it on Wikipedia. Your slur about not knowing what that is as if I am some ignoramus must therefore have been true the day before yesterday. So when did you first find about the Problem of Evil?

Actually, this was the only paragraph in your long post worthy of further comment.
The existence of these paradoxes should not threaten the faith of any Christian. They are kind of interesting but of themselves have no use. I suppose they can be springboards to learn other interesting things about God but the paradoxes themselves have no intrinsic value. For example God is not omnipotent because he cannot make a rock too big that he cannot move, and another one God is not omnipotent because he cannot sin. These are other examples of rather pointless paradoxes. Paradoxes like this exist even in the physical material world and Isaac Asimov had a field day with his Three Laws of Robotics which introduced all kinds of conundrums for him to write novels about.

God being eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, omnibenevolent is by these very facts completely beyond our comprehension. We only struggle to comprehend the nature of God. God, one being in three persons. God who predestinates men of free will to glory. God is so far above us that we are idiot children by comparison. Shall we reject God because there are some aspects of his nature that we do not understand? That is the approach of atheists who refuse to acknowledge anything in the universe which they cannot see, hear, touch, feel, measure or calculate.

Some things must be taken by faith without being able to fully grasp them. Yes God IS omnibenevolent and he IS omnipotent. But this introduces a paradox.
If God is omnipotent then he could have created a world and universe which had no evil in it which is as good or better than this one. The fact therefore that he made one which has evil in it proves that he is not omnibenevolent."
An observation like this shows that there is a paradox which our human minds are unable to process. This is why we need faith, we believe that these paradoxical things are absolutely true even though we cannot intellectually resolve the paradoxes. We believe that in the divine nature and the spiritual realm with heightened intellect and understanding, with the full awareness of all the spiritual dimensions that the paradox is completely resolved.

Therefore I have faith that God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent at the same time. You correctly point out that this introduces an irresolvable conflict, therefore something must give and we must conclude that God is not omnipotent or else he is not omnibenevolent.
I say. NO there is no conflict and no paradox in the spiritual realm of the divine nature where the creatures and creator live at a far higher plane than us in a completely different dimension than us. So I believe in faith and in patience that when I come into glory and are taken up into heaven that I will understand these things fully. However many of these things are understood by me today by the action of faith and the revelations of the Holy Spirit. I am aware of them at a spiritual level that cannot be expressed using words and certainly not to those of darkened minds. However when I speak by the Holy Spirit to someone who God is calling to be one of his children, and who the Holy Spirit is moving upon that person, in that case my words convey things at a far deeper spiritual level than just the words at the surface level could be expected to convey. This is why a man must be spiritual and not carnal. He must appreciate that this physical realm is passing away that the eternal realm is in heaven and is spiritual. He must align his spirit with heavenly things and not with carnal earthly things.

As a man travels down this spiritual path, these petty paradoxes that atheists kick up become almost silly and inconsequential. The words that express them are light weight compared to the depth of belief, understanding and awareness that comes by the Holy Spirit. I wish for all men to attain these wisdoms which I have attained. For that I urge you to approach the Lord in prayer and ask for wisdom.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
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27-09-2013, 04:46 PM
 
RE: Another Flood question
TL;DR
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28-09-2013, 04:32 AM (This post was last modified: 28-09-2013 04:37 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Another Flood question
(27-09-2013 04:13 PM)excubitor Wrote:  Actually, this was the only paragraph in your long post worthy of further comment.

Because you simply don't have any good answers for anything. Everything you said boils sown to 'I don't know, therefor (the particular interpretation I was raised to believe in) god exists'. Same broken record... Drinking Beverage

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28-09-2013, 05:38 AM
Another Flood question
(17-09-2013 06:36 AM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  A few days ago I asked a friend of mine what Satan was doing during the flood. He has yet to answer. So, I decided to post it to the Ray Comfort page to see what I'd get. Only two people attempted to answer. One answer was "He was re-igniting hell" and the other was, "Watching his trolls drown". I don't think Ray's followers got my point but my friend did which is why he hasn't answered yet. That point being, if God was so disgusted with the so-called sin in the world then why didn't he take out the so-called cause of all this "evil"? Didn't he get it that the whole cycle would just start over? God appears to be an incompetent bully who is powerless against the foe he created.

with friends like God ( who killed most of humanity), who needs foes like Satan?
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01-10-2013, 08:02 AM
RE: Another Flood question
(17-09-2013 01:07 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  
(17-09-2013 06:36 AM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  A few days ago I asked a friend of mine what Satan was doing during the flood.

Nothing - because he wasn't devised yet.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be a single reference to Satan in the Torah. The serpent in the garden of Eden was not referred to as Satan, but merely as a serpent.
Satan was found later in Job (1:6-12), but not as a rebellious angel. Only during the exile in Babylon did the Hebrews come into contact with good vs. evil dualism, which then influenced their theology.

Yeah, the old-school Judaism version of Satan was simply as "the Adversary". A lot of the good and evil philosophy likely came from Zoroastrianism. There are a lot of things in that religion that are not in Judaism but that are in Christianity.

Heck, even the notion of heaven and hell came about much later. If you read the Old Testament devoid of any context from the New Testament, you get a bunch of threats about literal "life and death", and when everyone died, they went to Sheol (sort of like an analog for Hades; a neutral place where everyone went. The word roughly translates to "grave"). It's only through backward reading New Testament themes into the Old Testament and retconning it that we turn literal life and death into eternal life and death.
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