Another abortion question!
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04-04-2014, 08:10 AM
Another abortion question!
Dear TTA members, I am hoping to use your collective intelligence for this question.

I am a very pro-choice/ womens-rights individual. Now, I was posed with this question--

Abortion is legal and is not considered murder by law, however, the Unborn Victims of Violence Act states that a pregnant woman that is killed and her unborn child is also killed, this could result in a double homicide charge. This Act gives person-hood to a fetus in essence.

So....my anti-choice acquaintances can't wrap their heads around this. My response was that I have not seen a case where the person was charged with double homicide where the fetus wasn't past the age of viability, and also, the woman had made the CHOICE to keep the baby, and the killer took that away from her. Roe v Wade even has language that protects fetuses that are past the age of viability.

So, my friends, what would your reply be to this? Hopefully this isn't too garbled..I only had 3 minutes to write this before my next class came in!
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04-04-2014, 08:17 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
It is the woman's choice whether or not to keep the baby; if someone else makes that decision for her by killing it, then yes it is murder.

Atir aissom atir imon
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04-04-2014, 08:18 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
(04-04-2014 08:10 AM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  Dear TTA members, I am hoping to use your collective intelligence for this question.

I am a very pro-choice/ womens-rights individual. Now, I was posed with this question--

Abortion is legal and is not considered murder by law, however, the Unborn Victims of Violence Act states that a pregnant woman that is killed and her unborn child is also killed, this could result in a double homicide charge. This Act gives person-hood to a fetus in essence.

So....my anti-choice acquaintances can't wrap their heads around this. My response was that I have not seen a case where the person was charged with double homicide where the fetus wasn't past the age of viability, and also, the woman had made the CHOICE to keep the baby, and the killer took that away from her. Roe v Wade even has language that protects fetuses that are past the age of viability.

So, my friends, what would your reply be to this? Hopefully this isn't too garbled..I only had 3 minutes to write this before my next class came in!

It comes down to who has legal standing to terminate a pregnancy. It is generally only the mother or someone with power of attorney over her (in cases where she is either mentally or physically unable to make such decisions) anyone else has no legal standing to end her pregnancy and therefore is committing a homicide.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-04-2014, 08:45 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
(04-04-2014 08:18 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It comes down to who has legal standing to terminate a pregnancy. It is generally only the mother or someone with power of attorney over her (in cases where she is either mentally or physically unable to make such decisions) anyone else has no legal standing to end her pregnancy and therefore is committing a homicide.

In a nutshell, that's pretty much what I said to the guy. He couldn't get over the idea that one law gives the fetus personhood, and another law does not. I can definitely see where an anti-abortionist would have problems with this view.

As the convo went on, I began talking about how the pro-choice movement has strong ideals towards pro-family and reproductive education.

I was then called irrational and immature in my thinking, and that all the pro-choice movement cared about was killing babies. Facepalm

Someday I will learn to not argue with idiots...
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04-04-2014, 09:19 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
I don't get why it was classified as 'homicide'.

It's not even infanticide.

Huh

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04-04-2014, 10:25 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
(04-04-2014 09:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I don't get why it was classified as 'homicide'.

It's not even infanticide.

Huh

I agree DLJ, but our politicians are inept at understanding basic things such as this.

It was passed in 2004 and included language that related to terrorism. For example, if a terrorist killed a pregnant woman, he could be charged with double homicide. At this time period, I think this was a good way to get Democrat votes.

Most of the 'nays' came from Democrats, but enough voted 'yay' and it eventually was passed by both houses and signed by Bush II in 2004.
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04-04-2014, 10:35 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
(04-04-2014 09:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I don't get why it was classified as 'homicide'.

It's not even infanticide.

Huh

As both are merely legal terms (as is murder) it fits. Plus Homicide: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide

As you can see it is such a loaded term as to need other descriptors to designate what kind of killing it was. Honestly it is the single best argument against any kind of objective morality there is.

What I have never understood is the argument that abortion is not killing the fetus. Don't misunderstand me I am staunchly pro-choice as I am a utilitarian and a secular humanist, but pretending it is not state sanctioned killing is dishonest.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-04-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
What is the state's interest in forcing a woman to have a kid she does not want?

The government does not interfere in appendectomies or other medical procedures. You have to be honest here. The abortion issue is about a bunch of fuck nut religious freaks screaming about what they think their 'god' demands.

Fuck them. They aren't raising or supporting the kid.... unless it ends up on welfare and then they can't get far enough away from it!

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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04-04-2014, 11:09 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
(04-04-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-04-2014 09:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I don't get why it was classified as 'homicide'.

It's not even infanticide.

Huh

As both are merely legal terms (as is murder) it fits. Plus Homicide: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide

As you can see it is such a loaded term as to need other descriptors to designate what kind of killing it was. Honestly it is the single best argument against any kind of objective morality there is.

What I have never understood is the argument that abortion is not killing the fetus. Don't misunderstand me I am staunchly pro-choice as I am a utilitarian and a secular humanist, but pretending it is not state sanctioned killing is dishonest.

It's not state-sanctioned killing of a person. At least not until some time in the last trimester.

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04-04-2014, 11:21 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
(04-04-2014 08:17 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  It is the woman's choice whether or not to keep the baby; if someone else makes that decision for her by killing it, then yes it is murder.

I disagree with you Ryan. No one should be charged with murder if the pregnancy has not made it past a point where a elective abortion is still legal. It the judge or jury sees fit to give extra punishment due to the woman being pregnant I am OK with that, but not two murder charges.
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