Another abortion question!
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04-04-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
(04-04-2014 11:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-04-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  As both are merely legal terms (as is murder) it fits. Plus Homicide: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide

As you can see it is such a loaded term as to need other descriptors to designate what kind of killing it was. Honestly it is the single best argument against any kind of objective morality there is.

What I have never understood is the argument that abortion is not killing the fetus. Don't misunderstand me I am staunchly pro-choice as I am a utilitarian and a secular humanist, but pretending it is not state sanctioned killing is dishonest.

It's not state-sanctioned killing of a person. At least not until some time in the last trimester.

I don't feel like government should be involved in morality as it is so subjective. So to me the "is it a person" debate is not only unimportant but is a huge distraction from the pertinent discussion. I do tend to agree that up until the point of viability calling a fetus a person is a bit disingenuous but when push comes to shove it is not why I am pro-choice.

I am pro-choice for much the same reason I oppose prohibition, the alternative is worse for society. Leaving the decision to engage in these behaviors to an individual causes less harm to society as a whole than does wholesale legal proscription (as seen by the massive amount of inmates on non-violent drug charges and the number of women killed obtaining illegal abortions in places where it is illegal) the rest of the discussion as far as public policy is moot.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-04-2014, 11:35 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
(04-04-2014 10:35 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(04-04-2014 09:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I don't get why it was classified as 'homicide'.

It's not even infanticide.

Huh

As both are merely legal terms (as is murder) it fits. Plus Homicide: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide

As you can see it is such a loaded term as to need other descriptors to designate what kind of killing it was. Honestly it is the single best argument against any kind of objective morality there is.

What I have never understood is the argument that abortion is not killing the fetus. Don't misunderstand me I am staunchly pro-choice as I am a utilitarian and a secular humanist, but pretending it is not state sanctioned killing is dishonest.

Because it's politically inconvenient. People are more than willing to kill other people if it is a form of punishment, but they can't accept too much leeway to save a woman's rights.

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04-04-2014, 01:02 PM
RE: Another abortion question!
We had a case in NZ where a boy was being groomed as an up and coming Rugby League star. His girlfriend was pregnant, so he invited her to the park for a chat. When she met him. He and a friend jumped her and punched her repeatedly in the stomach, it an attempt to kill the baby.

Do you think this should be assault or attempted murder?
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04-04-2014, 01:27 PM
RE: Another abortion question!
(04-04-2014 01:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  We had a case in NZ where a boy was being groomed as an up and coming Rugby League star. His girlfriend was pregnant, so he invited her to the park for a chat. When she met him. He and a friend jumped her and punched her repeatedly in the stomach, it an attempt to kill the baby.

Do you think this should be assault or attempted murder?

What are the laws in NZ? Here in the states, if I had to make the call, up to the point where elective abortions are legal it would be assult or attempted murder on the mom only, past that point the charges would be on both.
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04-04-2014, 04:44 PM
RE: Another abortion question!
(04-04-2014 01:27 PM)wazzel Wrote:  
(04-04-2014 01:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  We had a case in NZ where a boy was being groomed as an up and coming Rugby League star. His girlfriend was pregnant, so he invited her to the park for a chat. When she met him. He and a friend jumped her and punched her repeatedly in the stomach, it an attempt to kill the baby.

Do you think this should be assault or attempted murder?

What are the laws in NZ? Here in the states, if I had to make the call, up to the point where elective abortions are legal it would be assult or attempted murder on the mom only, past that point the charges would be on both.
I don't think he got done for attempted murder. Although of course, his intent wasn't to hurt the mother, his intent was to kill the unborn.
But of course mothers frequently kill their own unborn.
The law ties itself up in knots when it tries to invoke some kind of mystical sacred personhood belief.
In my opinion beliefs should not be implemented into law.
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05-04-2014, 01:00 AM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2014 01:08 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Another abortion question!
Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being.

Abortion is the lawful killing of another human being, therefore abortion by definition is not murder. Murder is a legal term....not a statement about morality of the act.

The elements of common law murder are:
1. Unlawful.
2. Killing.
3. of a human being.
4. by a human being.
5. with malice of forethought.

If they passed a law saying it was legal to kill gingers, killing a ginger would no longer be murder.
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05-04-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: Another abortion question!
(05-04-2014 01:00 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being.

Abortion is the lawful killing of another human being, therefore abortion by definition is not murder. Murder is a legal term....not a statement about morality of the act.

The elements of common law murder are:
1. Unlawful.
2. Killing.
3. of a human being.
4. by a human being.
5. with malice of forethought.

If they passed a law saying it was legal to kill gingers, killing a ginger would no longer be murder.
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Pretty much yeah. If only you could always be like this Heywood.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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05-04-2014, 02:04 PM
RE: Another abortion question!
Quote:5. with malice of forethought.


Not so much anymore....

http://www.adn.com/2014/04/03/3408551/ma...8/189/191/

Quote:At the hearing, a judge ordered 24-year-old Jamal Townsend to be held on $1.5 million cash bail. Townsend and 28-year-old Lamar Burney are charged with murder, attempted murder and assault. Their alleged getaway driver, 21-year-old Karlie West, is charged with murder and assault.

In a number of states you just have to be there when it happens.

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