Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
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03-10-2017, 03:15 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 03:12 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Wikipedia?

Yes, Wikipedia. It's far from the best sources but there is no reason for discounting it out of hand.

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03-10-2017, 03:56 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 01:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  Wow, they actually swore personal loyalty to Adolf Hitler? That's hectic...

Yes, this is actually what many officers claimed was the last reason to stick with AH and not participate in attempts to conspire or assasinate him. An oath is an oath. To officers raised in the spirit of the prussian army, their oath is the most valuable thing they had....and someone in nazi administration probably was clever changing the oath to an oath to Hitlers person in 1934, meaning that most if not all of the members of the german army had sworn an oath to him personally by September 1939.

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03-10-2017, 04:19 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 03:56 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 01:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  Wow, they actually swore personal loyalty to Adolf Hitler? That's hectic...

Yes, this is actually what many officers claimed was the last reason to stick with AH and not participate in attempts to conspire or assasinate him. An oath is an oath. To officers raised in the spirit of the prussian army, their oath is the most valuable thing they had....and someone in nazi administration probably was clever changing the oath to an oath to Hitlers person in 1934, meaning that most if not all of the members of the german army had sworn an oath to him personally by September 1939.

Although the popular view is that Hitler drafted the oath himself and imposed it on the military, the oath was the initiative of Defence Minister General Werner von Blomberg and General Walther von Reichenau, the chief of the Ministerial Office. Indeed, Hitler was surprised by the oath.[1] Before Hitler took office, the military swore the Reichswehreid to the German constitution and president. The intention of Blomberg and Reichenau in having the military swear an oath to Hitler was to create a personal special bond between him and the military, which was intended to tie Hitler more tightly towards the military and away from the NSDAP. Years later, Blomberg admitted that he did not think through the full implications of the oath at the time.

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03-10-2017, 04:45 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 01:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  Wow, they actually swore personal loyalty to Adolf Hitler? That's hectic...

The officers stated that they'd done all those terrible things because their oath of loyalty to Hitler demanded obedience.
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03-10-2017, 04:46 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
Nazism appropriated both pagan and Christian symbolism as a means of legitimizing themselves. It was cultural appropriation of the most mercenary sort. Atheists had no significant political or cultural cache, and there was no power to be had in ignoring the church; but plenty of power to be had in co-opting it for their own means.

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03-10-2017, 04:50 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
There you go: Reichenau, a well known General and big time nazi supporter (and predecessor of Paulus as CO of the infamous 6th army). Exactly the kind of combination you do not want in this situation.
You can bet your ass, he knew exactly what he was doing here.

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03-10-2017, 04:52 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 04:45 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 01:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  Wow, they actually swore personal loyalty to Adolf Hitler? That's hectic...

The officers stated that they'd done all those terrible things because their oath of loyalty to Hitler demanded obedience.

I'm just surprised that they got away with it. It'd be the equivalent of Trump asking the military to swear personal loyalty to him. I mean, who the fuck even is Hitler? Some jumped-up failed artist? And I must swear loyalty to this person who is not even a Kaiser, but some muppet who makes a living by stoking racial tension? I guess it was a different world back then. If Trump tried that he'd... ah fuck, who am I kidding. Some general would say no and he'd sulk for a bit, but he wouldn't be kicked to the kerb.

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03-10-2017, 05:47 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
The atisemitism of the third reich was transparently an aspect of German protestantism
Martin Luther wrote a treatise in 1543 entitled "The Jews And All Their Lies"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jew...Their_Lies

Quote:In the treatise, he argues that Jewish synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes burned, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[2] afforded no legal protection,[3] and "these poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[4] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[W]e are at fault in not slaying them".[5]

The roots of the final solution could not be more clearly religious.

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03-10-2017, 05:53 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 04:52 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 04:45 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  The officers stated that they'd done all those terrible things because their oath of loyalty to Hitler demanded obedience.

I'm just surprised that they got away with it. It'd be the equivalent of Trump asking the military to swear personal loyalty to him. I mean, who the fuck even is Hitler? Some jumped-up failed artist? And I must swear loyalty to this person who is not even a Kaiser, but some muppet who makes a living by stoking racial tension? I guess it was a different world back then. If Trump tried that he'd... ah fuck, who am I kidding. Some general would say no and he'd sulk for a bit, but he wouldn't be kicked to the kerb.
The inviolability of the personal oath was ingrained in Prussian society. One officer said it would have been easier to become a cannibal.
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03-10-2017, 06:00 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
I dont thnik so, Biker dude, if i understood you correctly. Because half of germans are protestant and half are catholic. Half of germans couldnt have been bothered by what Luther had to say about Jews for the past 500y, or the Nazis because of what Luther said, because they always were catholic. It was in fact members of the catholic church that much more resisted the nazis than the protestant church.

So, 3rd Reich antisemitism hardly can be attributed to protestantism alone . It can be attributed to Christianity tho, because before Luther, the Jews already had to suffer enormously from discrimination and violence under a 100% catholic Holy Roman empire that was permeated by this religion thoroughly. Lets not forget that in the times of the crusades this always present (catholic) antisemitism led to pogroms and mass murders which often are overlooked in face of the much more thrilling events the crusades themselves thriggered outside of central europe.

However, and credit has to be given for that too, during persecutions of jews quite often clerics up to the (very polictical!) ranks of bishops also tried to protect them Jews. As we all know probably in spite of and not because of their religion.

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