Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
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03-10-2017, 06:06 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017 06:29 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 05:47 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  The atisemitism of the third reich was transparently an aspect of German protestantism.

Martin Luther wrote a treatise in 1543 entitled "The Jews And All Their Lies"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jew...Their_Lies

Quote:In the treatise, he argues that Jewish synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes burned, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[2] afforded no legal protection,[3] and "these poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[4] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[W]e are at fault in not slaying them".[5]

Hardly. Reich antisemitism was biological one, which was quite modern invention. In times past Jews were denounced as "killers of the Christ" whereas in times of Hitler chimera of judeo-communism appeared and so called biological antisemitism has existed for some time.

Quote:The roots of the final solution could not be more clearly religious.

Roots of Final Solution were biological one as Hitler seen Jews as a disease, an enemy to be killed no matter the cost as they were capable of bringing Aryans down. Jews were racial enemy who couldn't be allowed to live unlike in earlier times when they - sometimes - could change religion to avoid death.

Religious antisemitism played a more background role I think by setting precedence for hatred towards one group and in making sure that church will not step up to protect those whose were abused by it earlier.

You can find more on the subject in Peter Longerich Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews who mentions influence of volkisch movements and Jean-Louis Vullierme Miroir de L'Occident: Le Nazisme Et La Civilisation Occidentale who write about so called "industrial antisemitism" and wider roots of nazim itself.

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03-10-2017, 06:25 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
The "disease" thing was an allegory, not an actual belief.
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03-10-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 06:25 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  The "disease" thing was an allegory, not an actual belief.

Was it?

To quote from Hitler - The discovery of the Jewish virus is one of the greatest revolutions that has taken place in the world. The battle in which we are engaged today is the same sort as the battle waged during the last century by Pasteur and Koch. How many diseases have their origins in the Jewish virus! We shall regain our health only by eliminating the Jew.

He also wrote of "Jewry" as a "racial tuberculosis of nations".

Not every Nazi could have seen Jews as disease, sure, it does not mean however that Hitler didn't subscribed to such view.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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03-10-2017, 06:48 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017 06:55 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 06:00 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  I dont thnik so, Biker dude, if i understood you correctly. Because half of germans are protestant and half are catholic. Half of germans couldnt have been bothered by what Luther had to say about Jews for the past 500y, or the Nazis because of what Luther said, because they always were catholic. It was in fact members of the catholic church that much more resisted the nazis than the protestant church.

So, 3rd Reich antisemitism hardly can be attributed to protestantism alone . It can be attributed to Christianity tho, because before Luther, the Jews already had to suffer enormously from discrimination and violence under a 100% catholic Holy Roman empire that was permeated by this religion thoroughly. Lets not forget that in the times of the crusades this always present (catholic) antisemitism led to pogroms and mass murders which often are overlooked in face of the much more thrilling events the crusades themselves thriggered outside of central europe.

However, and credit has to be given for that too, during persecutions of jews quite often clerics up to the (very polictical!) ranks of bishops also tried to protect them Jews. As we all know probably in spite of and not because of their religion.

I think the point is that Antisemitism was a part of Germanic culture (and consequently German Protestantism) for centuries.
It doesn't happen in a vacuum. Luther didn't steer the entirety of German culture toward Antisemitism. He enunciated it.
I mean call me crazy but when a figure as influential as Luther writes things titled "The Jews and All Their Lies" I'd say that's a bit of a smoking gun.
I doubt it's a coincidence that things progressed as they did.

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03-10-2017, 06:52 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017 07:33 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 06:48 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 06:00 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  I dont thnik so, Biker dude, if i understood you correctly. Because half of germans are protestant and half are catholic. Half of germans couldnt have been bothered by what Luther had to say about Jews for the past 500y, or the Nazis because of what Luther said, because they always were catholic. It was in fact members of the catholic church that much more resisted the nazis than the protestant church.

So, 3rd Reich antisemitism hardly can be attributed to protestantism alone . It can be attributed to Christianity tho, because before Luther, the Jews already had to suffer enormously from discrimination and violence under a 100% catholic Holy Roman empire that was permeated by this religion thoroughly. Lets not forget that in the times of the crusades this always present (catholic) antisemitism led to pogroms and mass murders which often are overlooked in face of the much more thrilling events the crusades themselves thriggered outside of central europe.

However, and credit has to be given for that too, during persecutions of jews quite often clerics up to the (very polictical!) ranks of bishops also tried to protect them Jews. As we all know probably in spite of and not because of their religion.

I think the point is that Antisemitism was a part of Germanic culture for centuries.

Antisemitism was part of European culture for centuries. Germany was nothing special in this regard: see Russian pogroms or Dreyfus case in France.

Quote:It doesn't happen in a vacuum. Luther didn't steer the entirety of German culture toward Antisemitism. He enunciated it.

It didn't happened in the vacuum - loss in WW I, worsening economy, fringe movements gaining support...

Quote:I mean call me crazy but when a figure as influential as Luther writes things titled "The Jews and All Their Lies" I'd say that's a bit of a smoking gun.

It's bit of a smoking gun for event that happened circa 400 years later?

Quote:I doubt it's a coincidence that things progressed as they did.

I doubt that Luter writings had more than cursory influence on what Nazis did, especially if we go with line of thought saying that Shoah was only part of Nazi plan of ethnic cleansing and imperial rule.

Also do you think that Luther somehow predetermined fate of German Jews by writing his tripe?

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03-10-2017, 07:48 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017 07:51 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 06:48 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  I think the point is that Antisemitism was a part of Germanic culture (and consequently German Protestantism) for centuries.
Germanic? I disagree. It was historically worse in France, and France has rather a celtic/gaul heritage than germanic to be precise. So, no, Germany never was very big on the europen antisemitism stage. There always were bigger players...until 1933.

Antisemitism in general was much more a part in modern eastern europe (orthodox) too than western, as Szuchow already mentioned.

(03-10-2017 06:48 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  It doesn't happen in a vacuum. Luther didn't steer the entirety of German culture toward Antisemitism. He enunciated it.
There was outspoken antisemitism before Luther (see my previous post). He wasnt special in this regard in general, but yea he actually was even more antisemitic. Yet (see below) his influence in the HRE was very limited.

(03-10-2017 06:48 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  I mean call me crazy but when a figure as influential as Luther writes things titled "The Jews and All Their Lies" I'd say that's a bit of a smoking gun.
I doubt it's a coincidence that things progressed as they did.
Luther and his writings were not that significant per se in Germany. The claim established by him that everyone has a right to read the bible in his native language and intepret it for himself (rather than being cherry picked and told by the clergy), that was a complete game changer. This and the potential some dukes saw in making use of this for own power gain.

We should not forget that what was "Germany" back then was the Holy Roman Empire (HRE), and it always was officially catholic. Its territory included what is now Poland, Czecheslovakia, Netherland, northern Italy, what is eastern France and much more. The most devastating war in europe was fought over this (1618-48) as the emperor tired to push this with imperial troops (*pictures Darth Vader leading them, with imperial march music playing in the background* Smile ). If we want to figure out what influence Luther had, we would need to go and check all dutchies that became protestant for a longer time. That map would roughly translate to what you see in current Germany: Eastern and northern Germany, whose dukes protected Luther (Saxony) and who got major support by invading swedish troops during the following 30y-War. Southern Germany was and is exclusively catholic. Luther never had any authority there. You can travel to Bavaria and ask them, literally.

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03-10-2017, 08:29 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 06:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 06:25 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  The "disease" thing was an allegory, not an actual belief.

Was it?

To quote from Hitler - The discovery of the Jewish virus is one of the greatest revolutions that has taken place in the world. The battle in which we are engaged today is the same sort as the battle waged during the last century by Pasteur and Koch. How many diseases have their origins in the Jewish virus! We shall regain our health only by eliminating the Jew.

He also wrote of "Jewry" as a "racial tuberculosis of nations".

Not every Nazi could have seen Jews as disease, sure, it does not mean however that Hitler didn't subscribed to such view.
Hyperbole detector broken? Drinking Beverage
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03-10-2017, 08:34 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2017 08:51 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 08:29 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 06:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Was it?

To quote from Hitler - The discovery of the Jewish virus is one of the greatest revolutions that has taken place in the world. The battle in which we are engaged today is the same sort as the battle waged during the last century by Pasteur and Koch. How many diseases have their origins in the Jewish virus! We shall regain our health only by eliminating the Jew.

He also wrote of "Jewry" as a "racial tuberculosis of nations".

Not every Nazi could have seen Jews as disease, sure, it does not mean however that Hitler didn't subscribed to such view.
Hyperbole detector broken? Drinking Beverage

Seeing hyperbole where there weren't one? Drinking Beverage

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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03-10-2017, 09:18 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 08:34 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 08:29 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  Hyperbole detector broken? Drinking Beverage

Seeing hyperbole where there weren't one? Drinking Beverage

If my prof. for the "Hitler and the Holocaust" class at Purdue was still alive I'd direct you to him.
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03-10-2017, 09:23 AM
RE: Another argument why Nazi-germany wasnt particularly atheist
(03-10-2017 09:18 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 08:34 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Seeing hyperbole where there weren't one? Drinking Beverage

If my prof. for the "Hitler and the Holocaust" class at Purdue was still alive I'd direct you to him.

I could still sent my books on subject of Hitler and Shoah to you. If I wish to part with them that is.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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