Another attack on moral subjectivism
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26-06-2015, 09:12 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:05 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 09:03 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Intriguing.

How are your views derived?

Consider

My own emotional whims and desires, my nihilism leads me to a position where I am free to create my own values and act upon them as I wish, however I recognise my values are personal, and someone with different values is not wrong, simply different.

I have a base enjoyment of science, therefore I support science. What more do I need, no oughts or rational systems about it.

OK, so you seem to be saying that for you there are no oughts.

Pray tell, if you don't mind, why you disagree with Matt's clip that describes values as oughts and further, how you derive your values (oughts) from the is's that science provides.

An example might help.

Thanks.

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26-06-2015, 09:14 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:10 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 09:03 AM)tear151 Wrote:  No I WANT to live in a well running community, It's not a case of ought.

You dumbshit. How the fuck are you going to GET to the cohesive community ?

By supporting a society similar to ours because it supports MY interests, if it did not support MY interests I would not support that society. If I was poor, I'd support high taxes, if I was rich, I would support low taxes, this isn't hard to understand bucky.

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26-06-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:12 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 09:05 AM)tear151 Wrote:  My own emotional whims and desires, my nihilism leads me to a position where I am free to create my own values and act upon them as I wish, however I recognise my values are personal, and someone with different values is not wrong, simply different.

I have a base enjoyment of science, therefore I support science. What more do I need, no oughts or rational systems about it.

OK, so you seem to be saying that for you there are no oughts.

Pray tell, if you don't mind, why you disagree with Matt's clip that describes values as oughts and further, how you derive your values (oughts) from the is's that science provides.

An example might help.

Thanks.

I like X

I will do X

It's not I should do X, or X is good, or X is moral, just... I like X

It's not a case of ought, I agree with matt's video it's just I approve of something because it gives me positive emotional stimuli, I don't expect others to be the same.

"A witty quote means nothing"
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26-06-2015, 09:18 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:10 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 09:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Atheism =/= nihilism, only in the way that atheism =/= consistent beliefs.
The only atheist "belief" is that there are no gods or deities.
Atheists are consistent on that.
Beyond that, you are free to believe anything you want.

They're not even consistent in that. The only God they seem to lack a belief in is some sort of superman in the sky, while leaving much of the various aspects of God of traditional theism intact. Half the time they can sound like closeted believers, particularly ones that peddle objective morality and such, or any sort of view that negates or would be problematic for a truly godless worldview i.e ontological naturalism.
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26-06-2015, 09:19 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:14 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 09:10 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You dumbshit. How the fuck are you going to GET to the cohesive community ?

By supporting a society similar to ours because it supports MY interests, if it did not support MY interests I would not support that society. If I was poor, I'd support high taxes, if I was rich, I would support low taxes, this isn't hard to understand bucky.

Your conflation that your supporting isn't in the criteria of ought is what is hard to understand.

Unless you bicker and think ought is only one super strict concept that isn't a range based on your positions, it's hard to imagine how you think you aren't inputting an expectation or desire for it to be a way.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-06-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:19 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 09:14 AM)tear151 Wrote:  By supporting a society similar to ours because it supports MY interests, if it did not support MY interests I would not support that society. If I was poor, I'd support high taxes, if I was rich, I would support low taxes, this isn't hard to understand bucky.

Your conflation that your supporting isn't in the criteria of ought is what is hard to understand.

Can you explain how it is in the criteria of an ought, rather than an is?
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26-06-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:19 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 09:14 AM)tear151 Wrote:  By supporting a society similar to ours because it supports MY interests, if it did not support MY interests I would not support that society. If I was poor, I'd support high taxes, if I was rich, I would support low taxes, this isn't hard to understand bucky.

Your conflation that your supporting isn't in the criteria of ought is what is hard to understand.

Unless you bicker and think ought is only one super strict concept that isn't a range based on your positions, it's hard to imagine how you think you aren't inputting an expectation or desire for it to be a way.

I'm going to make you do something because it would benefit me isn't an ought. Supporting low taxes isn't a case of "Taxes should be low", just "Taxes takes my money away, voting against high taxes preserves my wealth, i like wealth, I will vote against taxes"

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26-06-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  They're not even consistent in that. The only God they seem to lack a belief in is some sort of superman in the sky, while leaving much of the various aspects of God of traditional theism intact. Half the time they can sound like closeted believers, particularly ones that peddle objective morality and such, or any sort of view that negates or would be problematic for a truly godless worldview i.e ontological naturalism.
Atheism can include objective morality. Atheism can include naturalism.

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26-06-2015, 09:22 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:20 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  Atheism can include objective morality. Atheism can include naturalism.

Any atheism that includes objective morality, is just closeted theism.

It's not particularly coincidental that the main objectors to objective morality, are atheist.
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26-06-2015, 09:22 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:16 AM)tear151 Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 09:12 AM)DLJ Wrote:  OK, so you seem to be saying that for you there are no oughts.

Pray tell, if you don't mind, why you disagree with Matt's clip that describes values as oughts and further, how you derive your values (oughts) from the is's that science provides.

An example might help.

Thanks.

I like X

I will do X

It's not I should do X, or X is good, or X is moral, just... I like X

It's not a case of ought, I agree with matt's video it's just I approve of something because it gives me positive emotional stimuli, I don't expect others to be the same.

(26-06-2015 09:14 AM)tear151 Wrote:  ...
If I was poor, I'd support high taxes, if I was rich, I would support low taxes, this isn't hard to understand bucky.

So if you were poor, you would believe that there ought to be higher taxes and
if you were rich, you would believe that there ought to be lower taxes.

Hmmmm.

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