Another attack on moral subjectivism
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26-06-2015, 10:51 AM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 10:32 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  My problem with the Stevils, others, and that video's concept is they declare "morality" means one NARROWLY proclaimed definition. Morality isn't just the idea of RIGHT/WONGS, Shoulds, Musts, or objective thoughts.

If morality is not about how one ought to behave, than what is it about?

How many times you going to ask that question when you've already had it answered multiple times in multiple threads by multiple people?

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26-06-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 10:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 10:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  If I can highlight the leap you are making...

Belief in a god (note that I do not deny a 'concept of' god), you say, leads to a great deal of things. OK, fine. If you say so.

If I reject the claims about the existence of said god, why must I also reject all those other 'great deal of things'?

List them and (if I'm in the mood) I'll tell you which ones I reject / accept.

Aaaaannnd ... GO!

I'm saying the concept of God involves a great deal of many things, that are all part of very meaning of God. Even when it comes to sayings God exists, the very meaning of existence here, is distinct than if one were to say a dodo exists. If I rejected God's existence, it wouldn't mean something along the lines of no longer believing there's an old man in the sky who grants wishes, it would entail a rejection of any sort of teleological conceptions of the world, any sort of goal oriented aspects to it, any sort of intrinsic meaning, or narrative arc to human existence, etc..

If you're saying you reject some concept of God, that's not connected to these beliefs, than I wouldn't even know what this concept you reject is.

OK, I'll extract, from that, a list.

rejection of ...
a) any sort of teleological conceptions of the world,
b) any sort of goal oriented aspects to it,
c) any sort of intrinsic meaning,
d) or narrative arc to human existence,

Here goes:
a) I can accept 'design' in the Dan Dennett sense of the term i.e. cranes, yes ... but no sky-hooks.
b) Overall pre-defined world (or universal) goals ... rejected. Goals based on evolutionary principles and physical laws (and of course, personal goals) ... no problem with that.
c) see b).
d) only in hindsight.

Got any more? That was fun.

Please note, again, that I do not reject a 'concept of' god. I am well aware that many concepts of gods and goddesses do indeed exist... as concepts.

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26-06-2015, 10:55 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 10:49 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You are simply, factually wrong here to say you'd give that up by not believing in a God. But you keep repeatedly holding that thought.

No I wouldn't be, you would be, because you imagine that God here for me and others, would be something separate from these aforementioned beliefs, when in fact you could say that God is the concept for the whatever forces, and conditions makes/made these things so.

If you think it were possibly for me not to believing in God, yet believe in all these others things, please tell me what it is I would no longer be believing in?
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26-06-2015, 10:59 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 10:54 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 10:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm saying the concept of God involves a great deal of many things, that are all part of very meaning of God. Even when it comes to sayings God exists, the very meaning of existence here, is distinct than if one were to say a dodo exists. If I rejected God's existence, it wouldn't mean something along the lines of no longer believing there's an old man in the sky who grants wishes, it would entail a rejection of any sort of teleological conceptions of the world, any sort of goal oriented aspects to it, any sort of intrinsic meaning, or narrative arc to human existence, etc..

If you're saying you reject some concept of God, that's not connected to these beliefs, than I wouldn't even know what this concept you reject is.

OK, I'll extract, from that, a list.

rejection of ...
a) any sort of teleological conceptions of the world,
b) any sort of goal oriented aspects to it,
c) any sort of intrinsic meaning,
d) or narrative arc to human existence,

Here goes:
a) I can accept 'design' in the Dan Dennett sense of the term i.e. cranes, yes ... but no sky-hooks.
b) Overall pre-defined world (or universal) goals ... rejected. Goals based on evolutionary principles and physical laws (and of course, personal goals) ... no problem with that.
c) see b).
d) only in hindsight.

Got any more? That was fun.

Please note, again, that I do not reject a 'concept of' god. I am well aware that many concepts of gods and goddesses do indeed exist... as concepts.

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Yea, but you're not particularly believing what is implied by goals, or design, or narrative arc, or even teleological beliefs. You're just changing the meaning of the words to suite the sort of materialism Dennett subscribes to.
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26-06-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
Yea, but you're not particularly believing what is implied by goals, or design, or narrative arc, or even teleological beliefs. You're just changing the meaning of the words to suite the sort of materialism Dennett subscribes to.

So sue me.

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26-06-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 09:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 09:41 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Saying that atheism leads to nihilism is akin to saying that conservatism leads to fascism. Or that liberalism leads to communism. It is a moronic reductionist argument that oversimplifies things to make a preconceived conclusion work.

I don't think atheism leads to nihilism, any number of atheists can delude themselves and believe in moral realism, objective morality etc... The arguments here is that an intellectually honest atheism subscribes to moral nihilism.

Atheism no mores leads to moral nihilism, than it leads to intellectual honesty.

Yet another simplistic and false dichotomy. Those aren't the only choices.

Quote:
Quote: Your opinion (as a theist who clearly doesn't care about understanding the arguments being presented to you

I think I understand the arguments of others atheists like Tear, Stevel, Matt Finney when it comes to morality quite well, it doesn't seem like you and others here do. In fact I think their arguments are sound, which makes it a bit more amusing when others atheists such as yourself attempt to reject it, with a series of bad arguments.

And my opinion is that their arguments are weak libertarian sauce.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-06-2015, 11:39 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 11:07 AM)Chas Wrote:  And my opinion is that their arguments are weak libertarian sauce.

If moral nihilism is false, what is the correct position?
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26-06-2015, 11:55 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 11:39 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 11:07 AM)Chas Wrote:  And my opinion is that their arguments are weak libertarian sauce.

If moral nihilism is false, what is the correct position?

It starts with valuing self, then our evolved empathy kicks in and we value others, too.
So we don't cause harm to others that we would not done to us.

It is neither objective or subjective; it has elements of both. The way our minds and emotions work are objective facts - how far we extend that empathy is a choice.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-06-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 11:55 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 11:39 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If moral nihilism is false, what is the correct position?

It starts with valuing self, then our evolved empathy kicks in and we value others, too.
So we don't cause harm to others that we would not done to us.

It is neither objective or subjective; it has elements of both. The way our minds and emotions work are objective facts - how far we extend that empathy is a choice.

Morality is an observed behavior that appears to be an emergent behavior from the evolution of societies. It is an adaptation of altruistic behavior.

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26-06-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 11:56 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 11:55 AM)Chas Wrote:  It starts with valuing self, then our evolved empathy kicks in and we value others, too.
So we don't cause harm to others that we would not done to us.

It is neither objective or subjective; it has elements of both. The way our minds and emotions work are objective facts - how far we extend that empathy is a choice.

Morality is an observed behavior that appears to be an emergent behavior from the evolution of societies. It is an adaptation of altruistic behavior.

your argument was addressed in the video.

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