Another attack on moral subjectivism
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26-06-2015, 04:03 PM
Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 04:03 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 04:01 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Then how is morality an individual concept? Who are you obligated to?

i said im a moral nihilist, i reject the idea.

But you adhere to the normative definition of morality that if it is moral, you are obligated to do it?

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26-06-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 04:03 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 04:03 PM)tear151 Wrote:  i said im a moral nihilist, i reject the idea.

But you adhere to the normative definition of morality that if it is moral, you are obligated to do it?

thus i believe nothing is moral or immoral and call myself a nihilist.

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26-06-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 04:01 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 04:00 PM)tear151 Wrote:  i hold the normative definition, if an action is moral, im obligated to do it.

Then how is morality an individual concept? Who are you obligated to?

Exactly! God!

For a religious person to make moral claims is totally consistent with their other views/beliefs.

For a non-religious person to make moral claims sounds silly and leaves lots of explaining to do.

This is why atheism leads to nihilism.
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26-06-2015, 04:07 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 03:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Morality is a personal belief that something is right or that something is wrong."

That wouldn't exist without society.
Depends on your definition of society.

You could say that morality wouldn't exist without oxygen. But it doesn't get to the point does it.

If we have a "society" of one person. And if this person has a belief that masturbation is immoral, then for this person masturbation is immoral, which is a moral "truth" which exists for this person at that point in time.

If we have a "society" of two people. One person believes masturbation is immoral, another person believes masturbation is a moral and healthy activity then we have a stalemate. A society where half the people believe masturbation is immoral.

If we have a "society" of three people, two think masturbation is immoral, one thinks it is healthy and moral then we have a divided society, a society where most think morality is immoral and some think it is moral.

If we have a "society" of ten million, where only one person thinks masturbation is moral and the rest thinks it is immoral then we have a divided society. We do not have the case where masturbation is immoral for that society.
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26-06-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 04:07 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 03:51 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Morality is a personal belief that something is right or that something is wrong."

That wouldn't exist without society.
Depends on your definition of society.

You could say that morality wouldn't exist without oxygen. But it doesn't get to the point does it.

If we have a "society" of one person. And if this person has a belief that masturbation is immoral, then for this person masturbation is immoral, which is a moral "truth" which exists for this person at that point in time.

If we have a "society" of two people. One person believes masturbation is immoral, another person believes masturbation is a moral and healthy activity then we have a stalemate. A society where half the people believe masturbation is immoral.

If we have a "society" of three people, two think masturbation is immoral, one thinks it is healthy and moral then we have a divided society, a society where most think morality is immoral and some think it is moral.

If we have a "society" of ten million, where only one person thinks masturbation is moral and the rest thinks it is immoral then we have a divided society. We do not have the case where masturbation is immoral for that society.

OMG I love that oxygen quote can i steal it for future use Stevil?

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26-06-2015, 04:11 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 03:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 03:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, what he means is that without society, morality is a meaningless concept.

Even with society morality here seems to be an incoherent concept. Those arguing against moral nihilism, are doing a lousy job of it. TBD who defines morality along the lines of behavior, can't even clarify if he means how they ought to behave or if he's merely making an observation of how they do in fact behave.

He's been pretty clear. There is no 'ought' except that which the society requires.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-06-2015, 04:11 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 04:00 PM)tear151 Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 03:58 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Accept what as a definition of morality? That it is an altruistic-like behavior derived from society?

i hold the normative definition, if an action is moral, im obligated to do it.

And on what basis do you identify a moral action?

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26-06-2015, 04:13 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 03:59 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It's all a social moment because these "morals" or in some cases laws, come largely based upon what the majorities of these individuals felt. Individuals collect and form groups... that's how it becomes a social society value.
This assumes that 100% of society agrees with a value and then calls transgression an immoral act.

Most perceived values within a society do not have 100% support.
People belong to societies because they don't want to be lonely. If you want a society that exactly agrees with your own values(moral beliefs) then you will be resigned to a society of one person.
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26-06-2015, 04:14 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 04:05 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(26-06-2015 04:01 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Then how is morality an individual concept? Who are you obligated to?

Exactly! God!

For a religious person to make moral claims is totally consistent with their other views/beliefs.

For a non-religious person to make moral claims sounds silly and leaves lots of explaining to do.

This is why atheism leads to nihilism.

Though there are still millions of atheists who believe in actual absolute morality. It isn't something that comes form God, just Is.

I'm not one, but I don't agree that atheism really leads to moral nihilism.

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26-06-2015, 04:15 PM
RE: Another attack on moral subjectivism
(26-06-2015 04:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no 'ought' except that which the society requires.

How is that different than nihilism?
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